I keep a folder of potential blogging material. I recently pulled out the following post I found in a Usenet newsgroup I used to read. It was also cross-posted here.
Suppose a group of people walk up to you on the street and one of them introduces himself as John, the son of God? Those surrounding him say they believe in John and have witnessed miracles he has performed. One of his disciples announces from the crowd that John has healed the lame and cured the sick. He says "our book teaches that the authorities will cause John great suffering and kill him but he will not die! "Do you believe that John is the Son of God? Why? Why not?
Suppose John proceeds to produce a glass filled with a clear liquid seemingly from nowhere. "I shall turn this glass of water into wine" he says and with a gesture the water turns into what appears to be wine. He then says to you "will you believe me now that I am the son of God, worship and serve me as your savior"?.
Would you?
Would you say that this man is a probably a fraud when you have direct evidence that he has apparently performed miracles?
Trickery you say.
If it is so easy not to believe this man and his supporters how is it possible for you to believe in a 2000 year old story based on hearsay evidence. Beware of false Gods? John has warned his people of them too.
None of the events which point to Jesus as the Son of God is current like the evidence for John? Why is the bible, a book, written by humans such a long time ago taken as the gospel truth? It is even quoted by people as the word of God. Why is John's evidence that you can see with your eyes not believed? Evidence which is stronger than the evidence from a 2000 year old book?
Do you think people that lived in ancient times were more or less gullible than you? What kind of experiences did the average man have 2000 years ago? How long did he live? What did he read? Did he know what caused disease? What a comet was? What planets were? How old the earth really was? Did he know about germs, penguins and dinosaurs? Good nutrition and health care? Did he know a miracle when he heard about it?
Just wondering.
D. Haas
I've always found that to be an interesting argument against Christianity. What do you fine folks think?
Funky Dung
Comments 9
I suggest a read of Frank Peretti's book, "The Visitation".
It presents some good food for thought and prayer.
The litmus test for anyone claiming that the are the Son of God is, like St. Thomas requested, is to have the doubter place their hands into the wounds in the claiment's side, hands, and feet. An imposter, or a minion of Satan could not present those wounds since it was by them that he was defeated.
Scripture tells us that with faith we can move mountains. In the example the one working the "miracles" may indeed be working in "faith". But, we will know them by their fruit. And a lie can only stand up to the test of prayer and time for a very short duration. Their eyes will tell the story as will their heart.
And on another note, I would indeed like to sit with the claimant just as the disciples on the road to Emmaus did, for indeed, Satan could not make manifest the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in a celebration of the Mass!
Pax vobis,
John
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Posted 01 Nov 2005 at 4:26 pm ¶My thoughts:
Can "John's" disciples perform miracles themselves? Does John use his status as Son of God to get all the pretty 17 year old chicks as his wives (gigiddy gigiddy!), or uses his executive privilege for other bonuses? Is John humble or self-aggrandizing in his ways. Jesus would often avoid the crowds in order to pray, and early on, even told some of the people he healed not to say anything about him.
And let's say this John fellow does get killed by the government. Most messianic movements don't last much longer than that: in the Gospels, the Caiaphas mentions a false Messiah named Judas, whose followers scattered after Judas' death. How many Branch Davidians have you met in recent times, for that matter? Most movements don't last much more than a generation, and to have the Church last two millennia and to have grown as it has, and continues to do so in many places, that's something, even if you just look at it sociologically.
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Posted 02 Nov 2005 at 12:38 am ¶What about the resurrection and the fact that lots of lots of people, some of whom were not original part of Jesus' group, testified to seeing him alive after he had been certified dead? I noticed the author sort of left that out.
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Posted 02 Nov 2005 at 6:40 pm ¶Do I believe Jesus lived and walked around, preached and started a revolutionary movement and religion, yes. Do I believe he is God, not so much. I also dont think he ever claimed to be, its probably hearsay at best, or possibly intentional decption.
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Posted 03 Nov 2005 at 3:26 am ¶"What about the resurrection and the fact that lots of lots of people, some of whom were not original part of Jesus' group, testified to seeing him alive after he had been certified dead? I noticed the author sort of left that out."
I hate to bring it up, but people report seeing Elvis and Hitler even though we know they are gone. I'm very skeptical about witnesses who saw him alive. Were they really able to even recognize him? How well did they know him? Had they ever even seen him close up? It probably was mostly rumors and people how wanted to believe so badly that they were deceived by their own eyes and mind.
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Posted 03 Nov 2005 at 3:43 am ¶I say, "bring it".
Where is your God who was a man, and then rose on the third day (or even claimed to)? Let's see people cast out demons in his name (and we can locate some if needed). Let's see him heal the sick and raise the dead. Let's see him forgive sins and break the bondages that hold people captive. Let's see the martyrs he's produced–thousands upon thousands who have willingly suffered death without afflicting harm, and who beg for the forgiveness of their persecutors out of love. When you've found these things, we can talk.
This isn't some philosophy or hearsay, this is reality, and it happens here and now.
I say, "bring it".
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Posted 04 Nov 2005 at 3:25 am ¶Addendum: My God isn't some pie in the sky, and He'll change your life if you'll let him.
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Posted 04 Nov 2005 at 3:34 am ¶"My God isn't some pie in the sky, and He'll change your life if you'll let him."
This gets to the root of why I'm not religious. Everyone says something long these lines. Everyone wants me to make a leap of faith, but no one has been able to give me a reason to leap into their religion over the other ones, without out first making a leap of faith. (I hope that paragraph isn't too contorted)
Sean
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Posted 09 Nov 2005 at 1:10 am ¶Sean,
That's a fair assessment. A couple of things come to mind:
–Give God a chance: he's willing to prove himself to you if you're willing to move towards him. Seek, and you'll find.
–The other is that I can't think of a more audacious claim than the Christion one: God humbled himself to become human, and permitted himself to be killed by humans, out of love to restore their union with him. I don't know of any other gods who claim to do that.
As a Catholic, I believe the fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church.
Reach out to God, and ask him to reveal himself to you–he will.
-Adrian
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Posted 11 Nov 2005 at 4:45 am ¶Trackbacks & Pingbacks 1
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