Tag Archives: heresy

Engaged Encounter Part II: Three to Get Married?

The first Catholic Engaged Encounter (CEE) weekend was given in Detroit in 1974 with the aide of the Marriage Encounter Resource Community. In 1975 CEE became a self-sustaining National Ministry. CEE has had astonishing growth throughout our country and also throughout the world. CEE is now taking place in more than 30 countries around the world. It has become the rpeferred Marriage Preparation Program for the Catholic Church, and today many other Christian denominations also offer Engaged Encounter programs. Engaged Encounter teams are all volunteers.

Earlier this month, my fiance and I attended a Catholic Engaged Encounter weekend. I've already written about the site and the Masses. This part is about the content.

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One Foundation

I found a verse to Samuel Wesley’s “The Church’s One Foundation” that
I’d never heard before. It was in my grandmother’s old Lutheran hymnal (Before the
green book, before the red book, there was the black book.). I like it a lot.

Though, with a scornful wonder,
Men see her sore oppressed
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed;
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song.

Signs and Ceremonies: The Incarnation

The following is from Teaching Truths by Signs and Ceremonies or The Church, Its Rites and Services Explained for the People by Rev. Jas. L. Meagher (1882, New York: Russel Brothers).

"Let us understand well and clearly the mystery of the Incarnation. If you say that he united himself to man in such as way that his Divinity took the place and fulfilled the duties of the soul in the body, you have only a shell inhabited by the Lord and you have not perfect man, but only a body without a soul. That would be an error of many modern writers.

If you say that the spirit of God dwelt within the body born of Mary, you would have a great prophet of God, and a creature not different from the prophets of old; but he would not be God, he would only come in the spirit of God, and that was the error of the Cerinthians of the first century [and the Arians in the fourth century, if I understand properly – Funky].

If you say that he had no body born of Mary, but that his body was formed of thin atmosphere like a vision, you fall into the erros of the Phantasiasts and Docetists of the early ages.

If you say that he was only a man born of Mary and of Joseph, you fall into the errors of the Ebionites and the Protenites.

If you say that his two natures, the nature of God and the nature of man, were combined in him so as to make two persons, different from one another, you are wrong, you are following the false teachings of the Nestorians.

If you say that his whole human will was absorbed into the Godhead, you fall into the error of the Monothelites.

If you say that he had only one nature, you fall into the errors of the Eutychians.

Now the true doctrine is this: That there was a human nature void without a human person, but, in place of his human person, there was placed the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, and there was God and man united in the Person, and there was in him two natures, the one of God and the other of man, but there was in him only one person, the Person of the Holy Trinity. And, as all the action of a man and all things that he does are referred to him, uniting both the body and soul, so all the works on God and everything that he did were referred to his Person. And the one who is responsible for all these things is is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity; and, therefore, the acts of his soul, and the actions of his body, and the actions of his mind, and his sufferings, and his privations, and all the things that he did, are the actions, and the works, and the operations, not of a human being, but the Second Person of the Trinity. Therefore, these are the actions of God." (Ch. 7, pp. 108-109)

Can Anybody Hear Me?

I’ve been debating with a Protestant (we’ll call him Joe) on the issue of praying to the Mary and the Saints. He posed an interesting question that I’m not sure how to answer. Here’s the whole exchange.

Me: "…the praying to Mary bit is not worship, so it is not idolatry. It’s like asking a very holy friend to pray for you."

Joe: "I suggest you read 1 Timothy 2:5. (I don’t believe that God wants us praying to anyone besides Him.)

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" – 1 Timothy 2:5

Me: "I suggest you read Romans 15:30, Philemon 1:4, 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and this Catholic Enclopedia article.� I’m not looking to refight the Reformation.� I just want you to know that no true Catholic gives latria (worship) to anyone but God.� Take a look at the Catechism if you won’t take my word for it. :)"

"I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf" – Romans 15:30

"I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers" – Philemon 1:4

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." – 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Me: "The point is that nearly all Christians believe that asking fellow members of the Body to pray for you or others is not only acceptable, but laudable.� Catholics and Orthodox believe that death is not a barrier between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. We ask the dead (the saints, small ‘s’) to pray for us as we would the living. We generally limit our prayers (really just requests for prayers on our behalf) to those whose lives were so holy we feel assured they are in Heaven (the Saints, big ‘S’). Among these is Christ’s mother. We see Mary as the perfect example of Christian discipleship. We don’t worship her or the Saints. To do that would be heretical and a very grave sin."

Joe: "Here’s a hypothetical situation: The pope, you, and two hundred Catholics in different cities all around the world pray to Mary at the same time. Who does she hear? If you say everyone, you are saying she is omnipresent. That is essentially saying that she is God. Actually, I don’t believe that she hears anyone on this planet who prays to her."

So I ask my St. Blog’s brethren, what’s wrong with the logic behind this question (aside from the fact he probably meant omniscient, rather than omnipresent)?

I suppose, at the very least, he should read this Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Communion of Saints.