Foaming at the Mouth

[Minor mistakes of grammar and spelling have been fixed. – Funky]

Theomorph, my resident atheist gadfly, seems to be losing his cool. His latest tirade against Christianity lacks the kind of logical consistency and civility his previous posts had.

"Now, I could launch into a tirade on how this is yet another example of Christians having narrow (or even closed) minds, how they are bigger fans of censorship than they are of thinking freely (because, after all, people who think freely are free to say Christianity is 'a huge lie'), and so on. But I am quite certain that should I do so, Christians far and wide will come out of the woodwork to tell me that (a) these Christians were bad Christians and (b) that I should not judge all Christians based on the actions of these 'bad' ones."

"But, you know, I'm getting tired of that argument."

So if an argument ceases to placate you, it ceases to be valid?

"But, you know, I'm getting tired of that argument. Yes, Christians can be very nice people. But what, specifically, in the Christian canon (whatever that is to you personally, according to whichever brand of Christianity that gets your tithes and offerings–and, oh, they are legion), proscribes ripping down flyers promoting the appearance of an atheist who will do things like say that Christianity is 'a huge lie'? You can say all you want that these people were being jerks, but where do you get off saying that your religion requires tolerance of atheists? Chapter and verse please. Black and white. Divine decree. Something. Because if you can't provide that, you really can't say these people were doing anything wrong according to your religion, can you?"

That bit about the multitude of denominations is a classic red herring. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument and serves as an implicit ad hominem jab. Then he presents a misleading premise. If we can't quote scripture to directly and specifically address these jerks' actions, Christianity must have nothing substantial to say about everyday behavior and interpersonal relations. Anybody out there want to do the dirty work of looking through Scripture for statements regarding appropriate behavior? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you" are appropos.

"Remember, this is the religion whose God is planning to immolate all unbelievers eventually anyway. Why he should object to a few of his followers trying to squelch the opposition is beyond me."

Joy. It's another red herring. Why should he object to squelching the opposition? We're supposed to be loving them and evangelizing them. Furthermore, if you have to silence the opposition, your argument must be pretty weak, or at least it will seem so.

"Personally, I don't see much tolerance for atheists in the Bible. Shoot, as I read the Bible, Christians should see atheists as pathetic, ignorant saps, consider us the lowest of the low, and remember that we are wicked people with whom you should not fellowship. Loads of tolerance there, eh? (Oddly enough, despite all this contempt for 'unbelievers,' your messiah still hung out with sinners, but apparently only to convert them. Whole lot of tolerance for opposing perspectives in the Bible. Yessirreebob.)"

They don't show up in the above quotation, but he references the following verses from Scripture (in this order). He used the NIV, but I'll use the RSV. Why? I don't care for the translation.

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God." – 2 Corinthians 4:4

"If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." – 1 Timothy 5:8

"Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" – 2 Corinthians 2:6

"And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, 'Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners? On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'" – Mark 2:16-17

Impressive eisegesis, Theo. I'll just respond to each verse in order.

Satan, the god of this world (god is used here like idol, i.e. false god), tries to keep us from seeing the Light of the World. Where do you see "pathetic, ignorant saps" in that? We're all the same boat. Satan works against all of us. If you have not seen through his lies, you are to be pitied and given help, not scorned.

Paul is telling Timothy to instruct the Christians he ministers to to care for each other. Evidently that church had problems in that area. To whom much has been given, much will be expected. Christians have been commanded to love one another and bear each other's burdens. Little is expected from those who have not accepted Christ. If, as a Christian, you fail to obey the command to love, you are worse than a non-believer. You knew and accepted what was expected of you and you did not respond appropriately. Paul was not denigrating nonbelievers here. Rather, he was rebuking "Christians in name only"

I forget the verse, but other references are made to mismatching, i.e uneven yoking. If two oxen are pulling a plow, and one ox is much stronger than the other, the plow will go in circles, the weak ox will be dragged, and/or the stronger ox will be over-worked. It is not good for a person's confidence or self-esteem, let alone their soul, to be married to a nonbeliever. Furthermore, marriage is supposed to be the closest human equivalent of the life of the Trinity. It is to be a source of sanctifying grace. Spouses should be helping each other to be holier. How can any of that happen when one spouse does not believe, much less if he is openly hostile to the faith?

Israel, God' chosen people, had been called to be a light to the nations, a beacon to bring all to faith in and love of the Lord. They were to love their neighbors. Instead of reaching out to sinners in their iniquity, they treated them like lepers. They were so afraid of defiling themselves that they lost sight of what they were chosen for in the first place. Jesus uses numerous analogies and parables to drive this point home. The one that stands out in my mind is the shepherd who leaves 99 sheep alone in the field to seek out one lost sheep. The Jews, in particular the Pharisees, were losing sheep and not seeking out more sheep. The herd was shrinking as they self-righteously patted themselves on their backs and held themselves aloof from common sinners. Not all under the Old Covenant were ignorant of their calling, but Israel as a whole needed constant reminding. Read the Psalms. Read the prophets. As Psalm 51 says, God will not scorn a contrite heart, but He will reject sacrifices given by those who are impenitent. Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, seeks to bring all into His fold. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. We are all sick and require healing from the Divine Physician.

"Christianity. What a lovely religion. If you can't change the unbeliever's mind, just cast him into the lake of fire. What does that say about a religion when it is so intent on a paradise so pure that dissenters are killed because you can't change their minds? Shouldn't the Truth be so blatantly clear and compelling that dissent is impossible? Oh, wait, the Bible says that, too. Except it certainly isn't very 'plain' to me. Oh, wait, that's because your God has 'blinded' me. This religion just gets better and better, doesn't it? First your God says the truth is 'plain' to see, then he blinds some of us, then he burns us forever because we can't see. Your scriptures, not mine."

Who's casting people into a lake of fire? Faith isn't about changing minds. It's about changing hearts. Those who know God's Word, willfully, and with proper reflection, reject it, and die in their unbelief have cast themselves out of Paradise. Atheists are generally willing to belong to clubs and organizations with far more arbitrary membership requirements than Christianity, but find a requirement of purity and holiness to be too much to bear. God is Love. He wants us to love Him. He wants us to love each other. He has given us commands and instructions to help us do both. We obey God because we love and trust Him, just as we obey our parents because we love and trust them. I suppose you'll be telling me how much you dislike the "God as parent analogy" I'm sorry. I can't help it. The creator of the universe has asked us to call Him "our Father"

"By the way, did you notice how these links to the Bible are going to the New Testament? That's the one where God is supposedly all about love and forgiveness. I'm not buyin' it."

Perhaps that's because your Scriptural exegesis leaves much to be desired.

"Oh, I can't wait for all the interpretive backflips to explain away all those bits of scripture…"

That's another fallacious argument, but I forget the name. By mocking someone's argument before it is given, one attempts to invalidate its conclusions in advance. By calling all exegetical responses "backflips" you have shown yourself to be the one with the narrow or closed mind.

Theo, this is not one of your better arguments against the faith. It is riddled with misleading and incorrect statements and sophistry. You would be well served by a visit to The Fallacy Files before you publish your next diatribe.

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About Funky Dung

Who is Funky Dung? 29-year-old grad student in Intelligent Systems (A.I.) at the University of Pittsburgh. I consider myself to be politically moderate and independent and somewhere between a traditional and neo-traditional Catholic. I was raised Lutheran, spent a number of years as an agnostic, and joined the Catholic Church at the 2000 Easter Vigil. Why Funky Dung? I haven't been asked this question nearly as many times as you or I might expect. Funky Dung is a reference to an obscure Pink Floyd song. On the album Atom Heart Mother, there is a track called Atom Heart Mother Suite. It's broken up into movements, like a symphony, and one of the movements is called Funky Dung. I picked that nickname a long time ago (while I was still in high school I think), shortly after getting an internet connection for the first time. To me it means "cool/neat/groovy/spiffy stuff/crap/shiznit", as in "That's some cool stuff, dude!" Whence Ales Rarus? I used to enjoy making people guess what this means, but I've decided to relent and make it known to all. Ales Rarus is a Latin play on words. "Avis rarus" means "a rare bird" and carries similar meaning to "an odd fellow". "Ales" is another Latin word for bird that carries connotations of omens, signs of the times, and/or augery. If you want to get technical, both "avis" and "ales" are feminine (requiring "rara", but they can be made masculine in poetry (which tends to breaks lots of rules). I decided I'd rather have a masculine name in Latin. ;) Yeah, I'm a nerd. So what? :-P Wherefore blog? It is my intention to "teach in order to lead others to faith" by being always "on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful" through the "use of the communications media". I also act knowing that I "have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors [my] opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and [I] have a right to make [my] opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward [my and their] pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons." (adapted from CCC 904-907) Statement of Faith I have been baptized and confirmed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I, therefore, renounce Satan; I renounce all his works; I renounce all his allurements. I hold and profess all that is contained in the Apostles' Creed, the Niceno- Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. Having been buried with Christ unto death and raised up with him unto a new life, I promise to live no longer for myself or for that world which is the enemy of God but for him who died for me and rose again, serving God, my heavenly Father, faithfully and unto death in the holy Catholic Church. I am obedient to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. That is, I promote and defend authentic Catholic Teaching and Faith in union with Christ and His Church and in union with the Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of St. Peter. Thanks be unto Thee, O my God, for all Thy infinite goodness, and, especially, for the love Thou hast shown unto me at my Confirmation. I Give Thee thanks that Thou didst then send down Thy Holy Spirit unto my soul with all His gifts and graces. May He take full possession of me for ever. May His divine unction cause my face to shine. May His heavenly wisdom reign in my heart. May His understanding enlighten my darkness. May His counsel guide me. May His knowledge instruct me. May His piety make me fervent. May His divine fear keep me from all evil. Drive from my soul, O Lord, all that may defile it. Give me grace to be Thy faithful soldier, that having fought the good fight of faith, I may be brought to the crown of everlasting life, through the merits of Thy dearly beloved Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen. Behind the Curtain: an Interview With Funky Dung (Thursday, March 03, 2005) I try to avoid most memes that make their way 'round the blogosphere (We really do need a better name, don't we?), but some are worth participating in. Take for instance the "interview game" that's the talk o' the 'sphere. I think it's a great way to get to know the people in neighborhood. Who are the people in your neighborhood? In your neighborhod? In your neigh-bor-hoo-ood...*smack* Sorry, Sesame Street flashback. Anyhow, I saw Jeff "Curt Jester" Miller's answers and figured since he's a regular reader of mine he'd be a good interviewer. Without further ado, here are my answers to his questions. 1. Being that your pseudonym Funky Dung was chosen from a Pink Floyd track on Atom Heart Mother, what is you favorite Pink Floyd song and why? Wow. That's a tuffy. It's hard to pick out a single favorite. Pink Floyd isn't really a band known for singles. They mostly did album rock and my appreciation of them is mostly of a gestalt nature. If I had to pick one, though, it'd be "Comfortably Numb". I get chills up my spine every time I hear it and if it's been long enough since the last time, I get midty-eyed. I really don't know why. That's a rather unsatisfying answer for an interview, so here are the lyrics to a Rush song. It's not their best piece of music, but the lyrics describe me pretty well.

New World Man He's a rebel and a runner He's a signal turning green He's a restless young romantic Wants to run the big machine He's got a problem with his poisons But you know he'll find a cure He's cleaning up his systems To keep his nature pure Learning to match the beat of the old world man Learning to catch the heat of the third world man He's got to make his own mistakes And learn to mend the mess he makes He's old enough to know what's right But young enough not to choose it He's noble enough to win the world But weak enough to lose it --- He's a new world man... He's a radio receiver Tuned to factories and farms He's a writer and arranger And a young boy bearing arms He's got a problem with his power With weapons on patrol He's got to walk a fine line And keep his self-control Trying to save the day for the old world man Trying to pave the way for the third world man He's not concerned with yesterday He knows constant change is here today He's noble enough to know what's right But weak enough not to choose it He's wise enough to win the world But fool enough to lose it --- He's a new world man...
2. What do you consider your most important turning point from agnosticism to the Catholic Church. At some point in '99, I started attending RCIA at the Pittsburgh Oratory. I mostly went to ask a lot of obnoxious Protestant questions. Or at least that's what I told myself. I think deep down I wanted desperately to have faith again. At that point I think I'd decided that if any variety of Christianity had the Truth, the Catholic Church did. Protestantism's wholesale rejection of 1500 years of tradition didn't sit well with me, even as a former Lutheran. During class one week, Sister Bernadette Young (who runs the program) passed out thin booklet called "Handbook for Today's Catholic". One paragraph in that book spoke to me and I nearly cried as I read it.
"A person who is seeking deeper insight into reality may sometimes have doubts, even about God himself. Such doubts do not necessarily indicate lack of faith. They may be just the opposite - a sign of growing faith. Faith is alive and dynamic. It seeks, through grace, to penetrate into the very mystery of God. If a particular doctrine of faith no longer 'makes sense' to a person, the person should go right on seeking. To know what a doctrine says is one thing. To gain insight into its meaning through the gift of understanding is something else. When in doubt, 'Seek and you will find.' The person who seeks y reading, discussing, thinking, or praying eventually sees the light. The person who talks to God even when God is 'not there' is alive with faith."
At the end of class I told Sr. Bernadette that I wanted to enter the Church at the next Easter vigil. 3. If you were a tree what kind of, oh sorry about that .. what is the PODest thing you have ever done? I set up WikiIndex, a clearinghouse for reviews of theological books, good, bad, and ugly. It has a long way to go, but it'll be cool when it's finished. :) 4. What is your favorite quote from Venerable John Henry Newman? "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." 5. If you could ban one hymn from existence, what would it be? That's a tough one. As a member of the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, there are obviously a lot of songs that grate on my nerves. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably pick "Sing of the Lord's Goodness" by Ernie Sands.

8 thoughts on “Foaming at the Mouth

  1. Funky Dung

    Actually, I occasionally comment on his blog. I set up a BlogSpot account just so I can comment on such blogs. It’s an annoyance, but it’s free.

    I responded here for two reasons. I was too voluminous in my fisking and I wanted my audience to chime in.

  2. Jerry Nora

    Between Funky and Steve, all that should be said has essentially been said, and I didn’t want this to snowball since the original post in question is quite unproductive.

    On a positive note, though, Theo has some interesting links to Iraqi blogs. Check ’em out.

  3. Funky Dung

    Hugo,

    I realize that. As my post says, I’m trying to point out that people choose to reject God’s grace. God doesn’t choose for you to be damned. I think Calvinists might disagree with me, due to double predestination, but most orthodox Christians reject that doctrine as heretical.

  4. Jerry Nora

    It’s just with all the talk about “why the hate us” or the dreaded retribution of the “Arab Street”, it’s interesting to see what hoi polloi, and not U. of Berkeley say. Asianews.it, an Italian-run news agency for the Catholic missions in Asia has excellent perspectives on international affairs, often on issues that run below the American media’s collective radar (which is an awful lot). I believe Funky is the one whose blog turned me onto Asianews, which is now a daily reference for my news fix.

  5. Jeremy Pierce

    The term ‘double predestination’ is ambiguous. Some mean by it that God has selected some to be chosen, which logically amounts to have chosen others not to be saved. That’s the biblical view. It doesn’t require saying that the choice to save some is exactly like the choice not to save the others. Romans 9 uses a passive voice for the one and a middle voice for the others, suggesting responsibility on the part of the unbeliever for not believing but no credit to the believer for having believed. Some take an even stronger fatalistic view that some are elect to salvation and others to damnation, and this election is regardless of what they end up doing. That view is clearly heresy. The others are not, but I think the middle view is unsupported by scripture and the first one explicitly stated in scripture. For a Catholic who takes this view, see the work of Joseph Fitzmyerm particularly his commentary on Romans. It’s not restricted to Calvinists. Luke Timothy Johnson’s commentary on James is also friendly to this view and insists that James is consistent with Paul on these matters.

  6. steve

    Wow, Funky, you’ve been pretty busy! I guess, Theo’s site doesn’t allow comments unless you’re a “member,” so, clever idea, put the comments here!!

    It’s hard to add much to your capable trouncing of the opinions herein expressed. But I just had to comment on Theo’s bit:

    Oh, wait, that’s because your God has ‘blinded’ me. This religion just gets better and better, doesn’t it? First your God says the truth is ‘plain’ to see, then he blinds some of us, then he burns us forever because we can’t see. Your scriptures, not mine.”

    How do I put it?…. W T F?!?!?!?!?!!! God (the real one) isn’t blinding anyone. If he were, you’d have every reason to be pissed; I’d be pissed too. Of course, the mere fact that we can see that we OUGHT to be pissed is perhaps one of the greatest evidences that God is not, in fact, blinding anyone… certainly neither you nor I. I mean to say that human reason is one of the strongest evidences of an Infinite Intelligence Outside.

    As to bad behavior by Christians, all I can say is that I’m mortified to hear of it. If I could, I’d perform the Christian equivalent of kicking the s**t out ’em. Ironically, I’d actually be justified in performing said correction, by the the very system of thought in whose name these folks were misbehaving. But certainly all Thought Systems have both more capable and errr… less capable… representatives?

    As to:

    Remember, this is the religion whose God is planning to immolate all unbelievers eventually anyway

    No. A full reading of Scripture (peppered with an application of that great gift Reason) would lead us to conclude that God neither wishes nor performs immolation. Hell is a place that people can only get by free choice–not just one, but a virtually infinite series of choices–all in steadfast opposition to the grace of God, who (as Theo certainly well knows) wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Everyone chooses their own way into hell; and end which I am forced to assume (due to the longsuffering benevolence of God) must be best for its occupants in some mysterious way.

    Though, parenthetically, our subject here, Theo, is obviously a very moral person AND obviously a person who exercises the Gift of Reason more than most, usually toward great good. Therefore, I infer that he is quite far from having fallen into the dangerous & unfortunate habit of utterly resisting and rejecting the grace of God.

    Cheers!

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