My Religious Experience is More Valid Than Yours. Nyah! :-p~~~

Riffing on a comment made in response to my post about the validity of religious experiences , I have a question to ask you folks.

If I have a mystical experience (or some other theophany), I say that I experienced some aspect of the Holy Trinity. A Hindu might say that he experienced Vishnu or Ganesh. A New Ager might say she saw a ghost. A conspiracy nut might say he was abducted by aliens. Let's assume for a moment that everyone who claims to have had a religious/mystical experience has actually had one. How do we know who's attribution is correct? Specifically, how do we Christians know that we are experiencing God the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? What proof have we that we are more right than the equally convinced adherents of other religions?

Discuss.

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About Funky Dung

Who is Funky Dung? 29-year-old grad student in Intelligent Systems (A.I.) at the University of Pittsburgh. I consider myself to be politically moderate and independent and somewhere between a traditional and neo-traditional Catholic. I was raised Lutheran, spent a number of years as an agnostic, and joined the Catholic Church at the 2000 Easter Vigil. Why Funky Dung? I haven't been asked this question nearly as many times as you or I might expect. Funky Dung is a reference to an obscure Pink Floyd song. On the album Atom Heart Mother, there is a track called Atom Heart Mother Suite. It's broken up into movements, like a symphony, and one of the movements is called Funky Dung. I picked that nickname a long time ago (while I was still in high school I think), shortly after getting an internet connection for the first time. To me it means "cool/neat/groovy/spiffy stuff/crap/shiznit", as in "That's some cool stuff, dude!" Whence Ales Rarus? I used to enjoy making people guess what this means, but I've decided to relent and make it known to all. Ales Rarus is a Latin play on words. "Avis rarus" means "a rare bird" and carries similar meaning to "an odd fellow". "Ales" is another Latin word for bird that carries connotations of omens, signs of the times, and/or augery. If you want to get technical, both "avis" and "ales" are feminine (requiring "rara", but they can be made masculine in poetry (which tends to breaks lots of rules). I decided I'd rather have a masculine name in Latin. ;) Yeah, I'm a nerd. So what? :-P Wherefore blog? It is my intention to "teach in order to lead others to faith" by being always "on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful" through the "use of the communications media". I also act knowing that I "have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors [my] opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and [I] have a right to make [my] opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward [my and their] pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons." (adapted from CCC 904-907) Statement of Faith I have been baptized and confirmed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I, therefore, renounce Satan; I renounce all his works; I renounce all his allurements. I hold and profess all that is contained in the Apostles' Creed, the Niceno- Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. Having been buried with Christ unto death and raised up with him unto a new life, I promise to live no longer for myself or for that world which is the enemy of God but for him who died for me and rose again, serving God, my heavenly Father, faithfully and unto death in the holy Catholic Church. I am obedient to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. That is, I promote and defend authentic Catholic Teaching and Faith in union with Christ and His Church and in union with the Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of St. Peter. Thanks be unto Thee, O my God, for all Thy infinite goodness, and, especially, for the love Thou hast shown unto me at my Confirmation. I Give Thee thanks that Thou didst then send down Thy Holy Spirit unto my soul with all His gifts and graces. May He take full possession of me for ever. May His divine unction cause my face to shine. May His heavenly wisdom reign in my heart. May His understanding enlighten my darkness. May His counsel guide me. May His knowledge instruct me. May His piety make me fervent. May His divine fear keep me from all evil. Drive from my soul, O Lord, all that may defile it. Give me grace to be Thy faithful soldier, that having fought the good fight of faith, I may be brought to the crown of everlasting life, through the merits of Thy dearly beloved Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen. Behind the Curtain: an Interview With Funky Dung (Thursday, March 03, 2005) I try to avoid most memes that make their way 'round the blogosphere (We really do need a better name, don't we?), but some are worth participating in. Take for instance the "interview game" that's the talk o' the 'sphere. I think it's a great way to get to know the people in neighborhood. Who are the people in your neighborhood? In your neighborhod? In your neigh-bor-hoo-ood...*smack* Sorry, Sesame Street flashback. Anyhow, I saw Jeff "Curt Jester" Miller's answers and figured since he's a regular reader of mine he'd be a good interviewer. Without further ado, here are my answers to his questions. 1. Being that your pseudonym Funky Dung was chosen from a Pink Floyd track on Atom Heart Mother, what is you favorite Pink Floyd song and why? Wow. That's a tuffy. It's hard to pick out a single favorite. Pink Floyd isn't really a band known for singles. They mostly did album rock and my appreciation of them is mostly of a gestalt nature. If I had to pick one, though, it'd be "Comfortably Numb". I get chills up my spine every time I hear it and if it's been long enough since the last time, I get midty-eyed. I really don't know why. That's a rather unsatisfying answer for an interview, so here are the lyrics to a Rush song. It's not their best piece of music, but the lyrics describe me pretty well.

New World Man He's a rebel and a runner He's a signal turning green He's a restless young romantic Wants to run the big machine He's got a problem with his poisons But you know he'll find a cure He's cleaning up his systems To keep his nature pure Learning to match the beat of the old world man Learning to catch the heat of the third world man He's got to make his own mistakes And learn to mend the mess he makes He's old enough to know what's right But young enough not to choose it He's noble enough to win the world But weak enough to lose it --- He's a new world man... He's a radio receiver Tuned to factories and farms He's a writer and arranger And a young boy bearing arms He's got a problem with his power With weapons on patrol He's got to walk a fine line And keep his self-control Trying to save the day for the old world man Trying to pave the way for the third world man He's not concerned with yesterday He knows constant change is here today He's noble enough to know what's right But weak enough not to choose it He's wise enough to win the world But fool enough to lose it --- He's a new world man...
2. What do you consider your most important turning point from agnosticism to the Catholic Church. At some point in '99, I started attending RCIA at the Pittsburgh Oratory. I mostly went to ask a lot of obnoxious Protestant questions. Or at least that's what I told myself. I think deep down I wanted desperately to have faith again. At that point I think I'd decided that if any variety of Christianity had the Truth, the Catholic Church did. Protestantism's wholesale rejection of 1500 years of tradition didn't sit well with me, even as a former Lutheran. During class one week, Sister Bernadette Young (who runs the program) passed out thin booklet called "Handbook for Today's Catholic". One paragraph in that book spoke to me and I nearly cried as I read it.
"A person who is seeking deeper insight into reality may sometimes have doubts, even about God himself. Such doubts do not necessarily indicate lack of faith. They may be just the opposite - a sign of growing faith. Faith is alive and dynamic. It seeks, through grace, to penetrate into the very mystery of God. If a particular doctrine of faith no longer 'makes sense' to a person, the person should go right on seeking. To know what a doctrine says is one thing. To gain insight into its meaning through the gift of understanding is something else. When in doubt, 'Seek and you will find.' The person who seeks y reading, discussing, thinking, or praying eventually sees the light. The person who talks to God even when God is 'not there' is alive with faith."
At the end of class I told Sr. Bernadette that I wanted to enter the Church at the next Easter vigil. 3. If you were a tree what kind of, oh sorry about that .. what is the PODest thing you have ever done? I set up WikiIndex, a clearinghouse for reviews of theological books, good, bad, and ugly. It has a long way to go, but it'll be cool when it's finished. :) 4. What is your favorite quote from Venerable John Henry Newman? "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." 5. If you could ban one hymn from existence, what would it be? That's a tough one. As a member of the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, there are obviously a lot of songs that grate on my nerves. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably pick "Sing of the Lord's Goodness" by Ernie Sands.

9 thoughts on “My Religious Experience is More Valid Than Yours. Nyah! :-p~~~

  1. dlw

    I think any prophecy needs to be checked to see if it coincides with what is taught in scripture and we are to be honest with ourselves about the nature of such experiences.

    We must point away from ourselves and towards God in whatever is brought upon our hearts to share with our sistren and brethren in Christ.

    dlw

  2. Tom Smith

    It kinda depends on what you mean by a “religious experience.” Just a really sweet lucid dream, or something more like what happened at Fatima?

    Another thing one could do to verify a religious experience would be to look at previous religious experiences of others. Compare your experience to, say, that of St. Margaret Mary Alacoque or St. Bridget of Sweden (I think. . . maybe).

  3. The Waffling Anglican

    I don’t think you can ascertain religious truth from personal mystical experience. It can _help_ flesh out the religion you have – like dlw said, if it doesn’t contradict scripture or the historic teaching of the church and it helps you understand something, go with it; otherwise forrget it.

    I think you have to evaluate religious truth on the basis of the truth claims of the religion itself. I would submit that Christianity (a) has the strongest historical basis; (b) best fits with the realities of human nature; and (c) is not something anyone would have ever come up with by themselves. That’s a lot longer discussion than can be carried out on a blog, I’m afraid 🙂 matter of fact we’ve been arguing that one foro going on 2000 years.

  4. gbm3

    When I think of religious experience, I think of events that physically happened in real time and space.

    Mystical experiences are all hunky dory, but these are all personal.

    Some examples:

    Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
    Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
    For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
    that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
    that he appeared to Kephas, then to the Twelve.
    After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
    After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
    Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
    For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
    But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me.
    Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed. (1 Corr 15:1-11)

    So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
    Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”
    Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”
    Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20: 25-27)

    On [Saul’s] journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him.
    He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
    He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
    Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do.”
    The *** men who were traveling with him stood speechless *** [gbm3], for they heard the voice but could see no one.
    Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus.
    For three days he was unable to see, and he neither ate nor drank.
    There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias, and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” He answered, “Here I am, Lord.”
    The Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight and ask at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is there praying,
    and (in a vision) he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay (his) hands on him, that he may regain his sight.”
    But Ananias replied, “Lord, I have heard from many sources about this man, what evil things he has done to your holy ones in Jerusalem.
    And here he has authority from the chief priests to imprison all who call upon your name.”
    But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites,
    and I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name.”
    So Ananias went and entered the house; laying his hands on him, he said, “Saul, my brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the holy Spirit.”
    Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. He got up and was baptized,
    and when he had eaten, he recovered his strength. He stayed some days with the disciples in Damascus,
    and he began at once to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. (Acts 9: 3-20)

    I’m not saying that if you don’t have an experience like those above, it didn’t necessarily happen.

    What other religions claim physicality of the same revelation to many (at the same time)?

  5. Stiegemeyer

    Untitled document You've pointed out exactly why a Christian must never base his faith on personal religious experience or feeling. We are too easily deceived the Enemy can appear as an angel of light.

    The apostles did not preach a gospel based on their personal inner experiences of God. They preached as literal eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus.

  6. Tyler Simons

    Untitled document Waffling Anglican, who knows how to pick a denomination, if I do say so myself, says:

    I would submit that Christianity (a) has the strongest historical basis; (b) best fits with the realities of human nature; and (c) is not something anyone would have ever come up with by themselves.

    I just don't like the feel of these kinds of arguments. I'm not opposed on principle to evaluating different religions, but how do you reall find out the facts behind the questions you ask?

    How does one determine the strength of a historical basis? What are the criteria involved? Isn't there quite a bit of debate over what, exactly the realities of human nature are? How can we understand the category of "something no one could come up with by themself?" I, personally, have a rather broad notion of revelation, and believe that there's no way that John Coltrane could have come up with "A Love Supreme" or that Shakespeare's entire oeuvre would be possible were they acting alone.

  7. Adrian

    I’m not sure that it matters.

    This isn’t a contest of personal religious experiences, and unless necessary to avoid scandal, I don’t think it’s practical nor profitable to go around evaluating everyone’s personal religious experiences.

    Further, I don’t think it’s of value to focus efforts on “proving” one’s personal religious experiences to others–it sorta misses the point. In certain circumstances, however, it can be helpful to relay those experiences to others.

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