Defending Purgatory

“And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.” – Luke 12:57-59

Can this verse, like Matthew 18:21-35, possibly be used as a scriptural defense of purgatry, or is the debt to be understood as an unpayable one (thus making the prison hell rather than purgatory)?

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About Funky Dung

Who is Funky Dung? 29-year-old grad student in Intelligent Systems (A.I.) at the University of Pittsburgh. I consider myself to be politically moderate and independent and somewhere between a traditional and neo-traditional Catholic. I was raised Lutheran, spent a number of years as an agnostic, and joined the Catholic Church at the 2000 Easter Vigil. Why Funky Dung? I haven't been asked this question nearly as many times as you or I might expect. Funky Dung is a reference to an obscure Pink Floyd song. On the album Atom Heart Mother, there is a track called Atom Heart Mother Suite. It's broken up into movements, like a symphony, and one of the movements is called Funky Dung. I picked that nickname a long time ago (while I was still in high school I think), shortly after getting an internet connection for the first time. To me it means "cool/neat/groovy/spiffy stuff/crap/shiznit", as in "That's some cool stuff, dude!" Whence Ales Rarus? I used to enjoy making people guess what this means, but I've decided to relent and make it known to all. Ales Rarus is a Latin play on words. "Avis rarus" means "a rare bird" and carries similar meaning to "an odd fellow". "Ales" is another Latin word for bird that carries connotations of omens, signs of the times, and/or augery. If you want to get technical, both "avis" and "ales" are feminine (requiring "rara", but they can be made masculine in poetry (which tends to breaks lots of rules). I decided I'd rather have a masculine name in Latin. ;) Yeah, I'm a nerd. So what? :-P Wherefore blog? It is my intention to "teach in order to lead others to faith" by being always "on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful" through the "use of the communications media". I also act knowing that I "have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors [my] opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and [I] have a right to make [my] opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward [my and their] pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons." (adapted from CCC 904-907) Statement of Faith I have been baptized and confirmed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I, therefore, renounce Satan; I renounce all his works; I renounce all his allurements. I hold and profess all that is contained in the Apostles' Creed, the Niceno- Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. Having been buried with Christ unto death and raised up with him unto a new life, I promise to live no longer for myself or for that world which is the enemy of God but for him who died for me and rose again, serving God, my heavenly Father, faithfully and unto death in the holy Catholic Church. I am obedient to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. That is, I promote and defend authentic Catholic Teaching and Faith in union with Christ and His Church and in union with the Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of St. Peter. Thanks be unto Thee, O my God, for all Thy infinite goodness, and, especially, for the love Thou hast shown unto me at my Confirmation. I Give Thee thanks that Thou didst then send down Thy Holy Spirit unto my soul with all His gifts and graces. May He take full possession of me for ever. May His divine unction cause my face to shine. May His heavenly wisdom reign in my heart. May His understanding enlighten my darkness. May His counsel guide me. May His knowledge instruct me. May His piety make me fervent. May His divine fear keep me from all evil. Drive from my soul, O Lord, all that may defile it. Give me grace to be Thy faithful soldier, that having fought the good fight of faith, I may be brought to the crown of everlasting life, through the merits of Thy dearly beloved Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen. Behind the Curtain: an Interview With Funky Dung (Thursday, March 03, 2005) I try to avoid most memes that make their way 'round the blogosphere (We really do need a better name, don't we?), but some are worth participating in. Take for instance the "interview game" that's the talk o' the 'sphere. I think it's a great way to get to know the people in neighborhood. Who are the people in your neighborhood? In your neighborhod? In your neigh-bor-hoo-ood...*smack* Sorry, Sesame Street flashback. Anyhow, I saw Jeff "Curt Jester" Miller's answers and figured since he's a regular reader of mine he'd be a good interviewer. Without further ado, here are my answers to his questions. 1. Being that your pseudonym Funky Dung was chosen from a Pink Floyd track on Atom Heart Mother, what is you favorite Pink Floyd song and why? Wow. That's a tuffy. It's hard to pick out a single favorite. Pink Floyd isn't really a band known for singles. They mostly did album rock and my appreciation of them is mostly of a gestalt nature. If I had to pick one, though, it'd be "Comfortably Numb". I get chills up my spine every time I hear it and if it's been long enough since the last time, I get midty-eyed. I really don't know why. That's a rather unsatisfying answer for an interview, so here are the lyrics to a Rush song. It's not their best piece of music, but the lyrics describe me pretty well.

New World Man He's a rebel and a runner He's a signal turning green He's a restless young romantic Wants to run the big machine He's got a problem with his poisons But you know he'll find a cure He's cleaning up his systems To keep his nature pure Learning to match the beat of the old world man Learning to catch the heat of the third world man He's got to make his own mistakes And learn to mend the mess he makes He's old enough to know what's right But young enough not to choose it He's noble enough to win the world But weak enough to lose it --- He's a new world man... He's a radio receiver Tuned to factories and farms He's a writer and arranger And a young boy bearing arms He's got a problem with his power With weapons on patrol He's got to walk a fine line And keep his self-control Trying to save the day for the old world man Trying to pave the way for the third world man He's not concerned with yesterday He knows constant change is here today He's noble enough to know what's right But weak enough not to choose it He's wise enough to win the world But fool enough to lose it --- He's a new world man...
2. What do you consider your most important turning point from agnosticism to the Catholic Church. At some point in '99, I started attending RCIA at the Pittsburgh Oratory. I mostly went to ask a lot of obnoxious Protestant questions. Or at least that's what I told myself. I think deep down I wanted desperately to have faith again. At that point I think I'd decided that if any variety of Christianity had the Truth, the Catholic Church did. Protestantism's wholesale rejection of 1500 years of tradition didn't sit well with me, even as a former Lutheran. During class one week, Sister Bernadette Young (who runs the program) passed out thin booklet called "Handbook for Today's Catholic". One paragraph in that book spoke to me and I nearly cried as I read it.
"A person who is seeking deeper insight into reality may sometimes have doubts, even about God himself. Such doubts do not necessarily indicate lack of faith. They may be just the opposite - a sign of growing faith. Faith is alive and dynamic. It seeks, through grace, to penetrate into the very mystery of God. If a particular doctrine of faith no longer 'makes sense' to a person, the person should go right on seeking. To know what a doctrine says is one thing. To gain insight into its meaning through the gift of understanding is something else. When in doubt, 'Seek and you will find.' The person who seeks y reading, discussing, thinking, or praying eventually sees the light. The person who talks to God even when God is 'not there' is alive with faith."
At the end of class I told Sr. Bernadette that I wanted to enter the Church at the next Easter vigil. 3. If you were a tree what kind of, oh sorry about that .. what is the PODest thing you have ever done? I set up WikiIndex, a clearinghouse for reviews of theological books, good, bad, and ugly. It has a long way to go, but it'll be cool when it's finished. :) 4. What is your favorite quote from Venerable John Henry Newman? "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." 5. If you could ban one hymn from existence, what would it be? That's a tough one. As a member of the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, there are obviously a lot of songs that grate on my nerves. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably pick "Sing of the Lord's Goodness" by Ernie Sands.

23 thoughts on “Defending Purgatory

  1. dlw

    Is there anything in the cotext of the passage to sugest Jesus is talking about the afterlife?

    I thought the basis for Purgatory was from Deuterocanonical sources?

    dlw

  2. Tom Smith

    Actually, upon reading the post again (as well as dlw’s comment), I don’t actually think that there’s any reason to believe that the text refers to the afterlife, though I may be wrong.

    dlw,
    the basis for our belief in Purgatory, like everything we believe, is founded upon Tradition as supported by Scripture and defended by Magisterium. One of the benefits of this arrangement is that the defining of religious doctrine does not become an exercise in archaeology, as it is with those who limit themselves to just one of the three (Protestants with the Scriptures, and Orthodox with Tradition). The commonly cited Purgatory Scripture references are from, I believe, 2 Maccabees.

  3. Funky Dung

    Um…it seems fairly clear to me that God is the judge and the prison sentence relates to eternal judgment. My only question was whether the debt to be paid was unpayable (like 100,000 talents) and thus referring to hell or payable in time and thus referring to purgation. C.f. the parable of the unforgiving servant.

  4. Jerry Nora

    The Devil is often portray as the Accuser. He tempts us and then promptly points the finger at us. Contrast this with the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete or Advocate, a defense attorney like no other.

  5. Tom Smith

    I think the character of the accuser seems to tell us whether or not this passage refers to the afterlife. Since the devil doesn’t accuse us, but rather tempts us in order to get to Hell of our own accord, I don’t think that the accuser is the devil. If this did refer to the afterlife, the only person who I could see being the accuser would be Christ (who, incidentally, would also be the defense lawyer and the judge and jury). I just think that it’s, perhaps, a little too murky and inapplicable to real death (yuk yuk) to count as a reference to the afterlife, though I may be way off.

  6. dlw

    I think we should avoid allegorical interpretations of the text and refer to experts and the surrounding passages(or cotext) to try to get a handle on it.

    That’s why I don’t think it means to set out a doctrine for the nature of the afterlife, something that Jesus didn’t talk a gehenna alot about. 😉

    Tom:the basis for our belief in Purgatory, like everything we believe, is founded upon Tradition as supported by Scripture and defended by Magisterium.

    Tradition is not accepted as the one true base by protestants and those of us who have studied a thing or two about Church history would note that it has nearly always been Traditions, not Tradition.

    The ways Theology got politicized starting in the 4th ctry as the church began to get Constantinized is not exactly something we should be proud of as Christians. It was nationalistic divisions among Christians that abetted the rise of Islam that, in turn, eventually led to the excess concentration of ecclesial governance in the church of Rome, after they lied about the Donation of Constantine to seize political power.

    One of the benefits of this arrangement is that the defining of religious doctrine does not become an exercise in archaeology, as it is with those who limit themselves to just one of the three (Protestants with the Scriptures, and Orthodox with Tradition). The commonly cited Purgatory Scripture references are from, I believe, 2 Maccabees.

    Well, we could use a lot more careful anthropological analysis of scripture, as I understand it. Archaelogy is of far less importance. And one can allow for traditions within a Protestant Pietist tradition, inasmuch as the Priesthood of the Believers also extends to the saints of the past, who can and should have a voice in present ecclesial decisions via tradition.

    dlw

  7. Funky Dung

    If settling debts doesn’t refer to repentance for sins, what in Heaven’s name does it refer to?!? I think the Holy Spirit is the accuser, Christ is the jailer, and the Father is the judge. There is no defense lawyer. Our sins speak for themselves.

  8. Tom Smith

    When you separate human traditions from Holy Tradition, you’re only making the same bifurcation that Catholics do. Can you give an example of dogmatic problems arising from the confusion of the two? Although I’ve never studied church history formally, it’s probably my favorite hobby. I am well aware of the charges leveled against the Church on the grounds that it is the fruit of some perversion in the Constantinian period. But no one has ever demonstrated (to my knowledge, anyway) that there was a change in the fourth century of which Emperor Constantine was the architect or efficient cause.

  9. Funky Dung

    “the devil doesn’t accuse us”

    Are you aware that “satan” means “adversary”, i.e., a plaintiff/accuser in a court of law? C.f. “who will accuse me?” in the suffering servant psalms in Isaiah.

  10. Tom Smith

    When you think of the word “adversary,” is the first thing you think of really a courtroom accuser?

    My point is that “accuser” is merely one of many definitions of “adversary.” More broadly speaking, “adversary” refers to one’s opponent, be he an accuser or not.

    It seems silly to assume that the meaning of the word “Satan” is “accuser” merely because that is one possible (and very narrow) definition of the word.

  11. Funky Dung

    Wikipedia: Satan

    The nominative satan (meaning “adversary” or “accuser”), and the Arabic shaitan, derives from a Northwest Semitic root Å¡á¹­n, meaning “to be hostile”, “to accuse”.[1] In the New Testament, Satan is a proper name, and is used to refer to a supernatural entity who appears in several passages.

    The most common synonym for Satan, “the Devil”, entered Modern English from Middle English devel, from Old English dÄ“ofol, from Latin diabolus, from Late Greek diabolos, from Greek, “slanderer”, from diaballein, “to slander” : dia-, dia- + ballein, “to hurl”[2]. In Greek, the term diabolos (Διάβολος, “slanderer”), carries more negative connotations than the Hebrew satan (שָׂטָן, “accuser”, “obstructer”).[3]

  12. Mofe

    If purgatory does exist (in whatever form), why do we say “May His Soul RIP” to the dead?

    And indeed if at the end of time Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead why would he have to judge the dead if they have already been sent to heaven or hell at the point of their death? Does he really have to judge the dead twice i.e at the point of their death and at the end of time?

  13. chris

    I believe the passage is further saying that the process of cleansing one’s soul is a painful process and you will pay in full for the ability to enter Heaven.

  14. Eric Williams

    “If purgatory does exist (in whatever form), why do we say “May His Soul RIP” to the dead?”

    I don’t see a contradiction. Why should we wish that a soul rest rest in peace if we know he/she is already in heaven?

  15. chris

    Eric, it’s just my opinion but I believe if a soul is has not entered Purgatory, that soul is in limbo, or the edge of hell. When I wish for a soul to ‘rest in peace’, I pray that soul has made it past limbo.

  16. chris

    Sorry, my grammar is a bit off. I meant to say if a soul has not entered Purgatory, or not passed through Purgatory, that soul is in limbo. I believe we pray for that soul to rest in peace to pass through Purgatory.

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