Comments on: No Tenure for Teachers http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798 A Rare Bird, A Strange Duck, One Funky Blog Tue, 02 Dec 2008 02:47:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: howard http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70985 howard Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:20:44 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70985 Out here in the eastern part of PA, our Joint Council and my local union have endorsed many Republicans at the state and local levels the past ten years. Of course, it would be difficult to find an example of that on the national level, probably because the national Republican Party is loathe to nominate anyone to a higher office if they support union positions in any demonstrable way. Hence, the unions aren't going to endorse such candidates. That said, I would still say it's a boots on the ground issue more than a sheer money/lobbying issue. But to dig a little deeper into what you wrote, "lip service" is an apt term for what happens much of the time. For some voters, lip service does the trick, because they aren't paying attention to the actions. Bill Clinton was a perfect example. Unions and those who side with them gave tremendous support to Clinton in 92, after which Clinton lobbied hard for NAFTA. Without getting into the pros and cons of NAFTA, it clearly was not a union-endorsed policy. The later 90s and early 00s resulted in a lot of unions (mine included) widening their focus as to whom they might endorse.
But to dig a little deeper into what you wrote, "lip service" is an apt term for what happens much of the time. For some voters, lip service does the trick, because they aren't paying attention to the actions. Bill Clinton was a perfect example. Unions and those who side with them gave tremendous support to Clinton in 92, after which Clinton lobbied hard for NAFTA. Without getting into the pros and cons of NAFTA, it clearly was not a union-endorsed policy.

The later 90s and early 00s resulted in a lot of unions (mine included) widening their focus as to whom they might endorse.]]> By: Funky Dung http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70983 Funky Dung Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:45:03 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70983 <blockquote>"A union's political power is largely in the number of members and other people who sympathize with its position and voice their sympathies."</blockquote> Most of the Democratic Party supports or at least pays lip service to unions. I can't recall <em>ever</em> hearing of a major union endorsing a Republican or other non-Democrat. Perhaps it happens once in blue moon, but it's either the exception to the rule or Democrats have done a good propagandizing the notion that unions monolithically vote for Democrats. "A union's political power is largely in the number of members and other people who sympathize with its position and voice their sympathies."
Most of the Democratic Party supports or at least pays lip service to unions. I can't recall ever hearing of a major union endorsing a Republican or other non-Democrat. Perhaps it happens once in blue moon, but it's either the exception to the rule or Democrats have done a good propagandizing the notion that unions monolithically vote for Democrats.]]> By: howard http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70982 howard Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:39:53 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70982 <em>"I'd like to think so, but unions are powerful lobbying forces to be reckoned with."</em> Yes and no. They do have political action committees to which members can contribute (on a strictly voluntary basis), but the funding for those committees is far outweighed by corporate PAC money. A union's political power is largely in the number of members and other people who sympathize with its position and voice their sympathies. In other words, organized labor's power is pretty much limited to the number of figurative boots it can put on the ground. There are wide-ranging and lavish efforts by those who oppose unionization. Folks like Rick Berman and mark Penn have made signigicant fortunes lobbying for such efforts. So while the union movement does have some lobbying power, it may not be the political behemoth it once was (or that some believe it still is). "I'd like to think so, but unions are powerful lobbying forces to be reckoned with."

Yes and no. They do have political action committees to which members can contribute (on a strictly voluntary basis), but the funding for those committees is far outweighed by corporate PAC money. A union's political power is largely in the number of members and other people who sympathize with its position and voice their sympathies. In other words, organized labor's power is pretty much limited to the number of figurative boots it can put on the ground.

There are wide-ranging and lavish efforts by those who oppose unionization. Folks like Rick Berman and mark Penn have made signigicant fortunes lobbying for such efforts. So while the union movement does have some lobbying power, it may not be the political behemoth it once was (or that some believe it still is).]]> By: Ales Rarus - Evil or Stupid? http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70969 Ales Rarus - Evil or Stupid? Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:34:29 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70969 [...] Lew Rockwell doesn't like unions any more than I do. However, Mr. Rockwell's feelings seem to be much stronger than mine, prompting him to call [...] By: Funky Dung http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70962 Funky Dung Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:58:53 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70962 <blockquote>"you shouldn't confuse the frequency of decertifications with the ease of carrying them out. The simple fact is that most union workers, whatever qualms they may have, prefer their union representation to the alternative."</blockquote> Touche'. <blockquote>"As far as your philosophical problems with the structure of a union shop, the laws governing that are also subject to the democratic process. If a significant segment of the population shares your misgivings, I'm sure something can be done about it."</blockquote> I'd like to think so, but unions are powerful lobbying forces to be reckoned with. "you shouldn't confuse the frequency of decertifications with the ease of carrying them out. The simple fact is that most union workers, whatever qualms they may have, prefer their union representation to the alternative."

Touche'.

"As far as your philosophical problems with the structure of a union shop, the laws governing that are also subject to the democratic process. If a significant segment of the population shares your misgivings, I'm sure something can be done about it."


I'd like to think so, but unions are powerful lobbying forces to be reckoned with.]]> By: howard http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70932 howard Fri, 11 Apr 2008 02:29:29 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70932 gbm3, there is a democratic choice as to who, if anyone, represents workers. Should a majority of the workers wish to change representation (or do away with it altogether) decertification is an option. Eric, you shouldn't confuse the frequency of decertifications with the ease of carrying them out. The simple fact is that most union workers, whatever qualms they may have, prefer their union representation to the alternative. As far as your philosophical problems with the structure of a union shop, the laws governing that are also subject to the democratic process. If a significant segment of the population shares your misgivings, I'm sure something can be done about it. there is a democratic choice as to who, if anyone, represents workers. Should a majority of the workers wish to change representation (or do away with it altogether) decertification is an option.

Eric,
you shouldn't confuse the frequency of decertifications with the ease of carrying them out. The simple fact is that most union workers, whatever qualms they may have, prefer their union representation to the alternative.

As far as your philosophical problems with the structure of a union shop, the laws governing that are also subject to the democratic process. If a significant segment of the population shares your misgivings, I'm sure something can be done about it.]]> By: gbm3 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70925 gbm3 Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:59:18 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70925 I've worked at union and non-union shops. I've been on both sides (engineer and in a union). The unions I've worked with/for have been good. It seems the larger shops/institutions had the more powerful union because management was more powerful (my management wasn't that powerful). And no, there was no democratic choice of unions, just elections every couple of years. As far as tenure for teachers, I agree with you FD. No tenure for HS teachers! (I was one.) They need to make the grade too. gbm3 - http://wonderingzygoteemeritus.blogspot.com/
The unions I've worked with/for have been good. It seems the larger shops/institutions had the more powerful union because management was more powerful (my management wasn't that powerful). And no, there was no democratic choice of unions, just elections every couple of years.

As far as tenure for teachers, I agree with you FD. No tenure for HS teachers! (I was one.) They need to make the grade too.

gbm3
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http://wonderingzygoteemeritus.blogspot.com/]]> By: Funky Dung http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70895 Funky Dung Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:26:41 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70895 When was the last time you actually heard of one union displacing another? Besides, deposing one union to empower another isn't the point. It shouldn't be an all or nothing situation. Employers should be free to hire any mixture of union or independent workers. By: howard http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2798#comment-70890 howard Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:42:07 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/?p=2798#comment-70890 Eric, Coming from a union job where tenure doesn't exist, I kind of see where you're going with that, but I'm wondering how much direct experience you have with unions after reading that last paragraph. A closed shop doesn't preclude other unions (or no union at all) from doing away with the current union in any particular shop. With the current state of domestic labor relations, it might actually be easier on balance to decertify a union than it is to certify one. It's as democratic a process as our electoral system. Actually, moreso.
Coming from a union job where tenure doesn't exist, I kind of see where you're going with that, but I'm wondering how much direct experience you have with unions after reading that last paragraph.

A closed shop doesn't preclude other unions (or no union at all) from doing away with the current union in any particular shop. With the current state of domestic labor relations, it might actually be easier on balance to decertify a union than it is to certify one. It's as democratic a process as our electoral system. Actually, moreso.]]>