Comments on: Main Stream Media's Motu Proprio Improprieties http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628 A Rare Bird, A Strange Duck, One Funky Blog Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:43:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Tom Smith http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-48074 Tom Smith Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:03:28 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-48074 Eric, you state that the old Mass may now be said with the new lectionary. I guess you get it from this: "Art. 6. In Masses celebrated in the presence of the people in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII, the readings may be given in the vernacular, using editions recognised by the Apostolic See." This is a misread -- the old Mass uses a totally different system of readings. Whether or not Pope Benedict intends the word "readings" to include just Epistle and Gospel is unclear, but that seems to be the case. In any event, though, the readings from the T-Mass are set up quite differently from those in the Novus Ordo Mass -- the new Mass uses a three-year cycle, whereas the old uses a one-year. As well, the old Mass has two readings (though myriad other scriptural propers) and the new three. Also, the readings for the old and new Masses are often completely different for identical feasts, ferias etc. The T-Mass readings also tend to be substantially longer than those from the new rite. Finally, and most importantly, the old Mass readings are taken from the inherited (Sixto-Clementine) Vulgate text, whereas the new Mass takes readings from the neo-Vulgate.
"Art. 6. In Masses celebrated in the presence of the people in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII, the readings may be given in the vernacular, using editions recognised by the Apostolic See."

This is a misread — the old Mass uses a totally different system of readings. Whether or not Pope Benedict intends the word "readings" to include just Epistle and Gospel is unclear, but that seems to be the case. In any event, though, the readings from the T-Mass are set up quite differently from those in the Novus Ordo Mass — the new Mass uses a three-year cycle, whereas the old uses a one-year. As well, the old Mass has two readings (though myriad other scriptural propers) and the new three. Also, the readings for the old and new Masses are often completely different for identical feasts, ferias etc. The T-Mass readings also tend to be substantially longer than those from the new rite.

Finally, and most importantly, the old Mass readings are taken from the inherited (Sixto-Clementine) Vulgate text, whereas the new Mass takes readings from the neo-Vulgate.]]> By: Book Reviews and More http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45932 Book Reviews and More Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:28:43 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45932 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] we journey with Eric as he shares a number of posts about the Summorum Pontificum.With him we hope once, twice and three times.Slowing down to look at the roses. Kevin at HMS Blog talks to us about [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] we journey with Eric as he shares a number of posts about the Summorum Pontificum.With him we hope once, twice and three times.Slowing down to look at the roses. Kevin at HMS Blog talks to us about [...]]]> By: Jerry http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45865 Jerry Sun, 15 Jul 2007 18:57:53 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45865 Amen to Bird-watcher on the reference to the Eastern use. In the first half of the twentieth century, a Pope made a provision where the congregation would sing parts of the Tridentine Mass that were ordinarily reserved to the altar servers. That would be worth revisiting. An annoying habit of priests seems to be the temptation to motor through much of the Latin as if they were in a competition to test fluency or something. I noticed that at a Latin Novus Ordo I went to in Baltimore some time ago. I was very excited by it, but was bemused to see that many of the apparent bad habits of the Tridentine Rite carried over. It's not like I can't understand Latin, but yikes, let's pace ourselves and enunciate! God help the congregants who have no Latin background. It'd be a muddle, and I'd sooner go to a vernacular Mass or a Byzantine Divine Liturgy where I'm not always flipping through a book wondering where the devil I am. Which gets down to my caveat that using the 1962 Missal requires some forethough and not just a desire to return to the 1950s or whatever. Let's learn from what drove people towards to the Novus Ordo in the first place. Earlier modifications of the Latin Rite (like that "dialogic" option) and the Byzantine Rite practices should give us great insight into doing so.
An annoying habit of priests seems to be the temptation to motor through much of the Latin as if they were in a competition to test fluency or something. I noticed that at a Latin Novus Ordo I went to in Baltimore some time ago. I was very excited by it, but was bemused to see that many of the apparent bad habits of the Tridentine Rite carried over. It's not like I can't understand Latin, but yikes, let's pace ourselves and enunciate! God help the congregants who have no Latin background. It'd be a muddle, and I'd sooner go to a vernacular Mass or a Byzantine Divine Liturgy where I'm not always flipping through a book wondering where the devil I am.

Which gets down to my caveat that using the 1962 Missal requires some forethough and not just a desire to return to the 1950s or whatever. Let's learn from what drove people towards to the Novus Ordo in the first place. Earlier modifications of the Latin Rite (like that "dialogic" option) and the Byzantine Rite practices should give us great insight into doing so.]]> By: Funky Dung http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45694 Funky Dung Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:15:18 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45694 <blockquote>"the "extraordinary use" was also silent on celebrant orientation</blockquote>Perhaps, but I think the rubrics mention a lot of turning around, which means facing ad orientem was assumed. Early versions of the new mass had similar, but I believe any mention of turning has since been removed. <blockquote>"the unison problem of spoken non-vernacular...suggest the importance of more singing a la the Eastern traditions"</blockquote>The mass is better when sung anyway. Just ask St. Augustine. ;) The Oratory has done antiphonal chant and it wasn't hard for the congregation to pick it up. <blockquote>"Don't know the reason, but it appears that the "attachment to previous liturgical tradition" may be narrowly interpreted so as to create a kind of "limit".</blockquote>AFAIK, allowing only 1 or 2 Tridentine mass communities is ostensibly a pastoral decision independent of which people have rightful aspirations and which don't. A diocesan official claims, and has mislead some priests to believe, that the indult was not meant for young people and that those who grew up after the liturgical reforms should be actively discouraged from belonging to Tridentine mass communities. Ecclesia Dei has clearly stated that their are no limits on who may rightfully aspire to partake of the indult. Regardless of rightful aspiration, though, bishops are free to apply the indult as they see fit for the pastoral care of there diocese. "the "extraordinary use" was also silent on celebrant orientationPerhaps, but I think the rubrics mention a lot of turning around, which means facing ad orientem was assumed. Early versions of the new mass had similar, but I believe any mention of turning has since been removed.

"the unison problem of spoken non-vernacular…suggest the importance of more singing a la the Eastern traditions"
The mass is better when sung anyway. Just ask St. Augustine. ;) The Oratory has done antiphonal chant and it wasn't hard for the congregation to pick it up.

"Don't know the reason, but it appears that the "attachment to previous liturgical tradition" may be narrowly interpreted so as to create a kind of "limit".
AFAIK, allowing only 1 or 2 Tridentine mass communities is ostensibly a pastoral decision independent of which people have rightful aspirations and which don't. A diocesan official claims, and has mislead some priests to believe, that the indult was not meant for young people and that those who grew up after the liturgical reforms should be actively discouraged from belonging to Tridentine mass communities. Ecclesia Dei has clearly stated that their are no limits on who may rightfully aspire to partake of the indult. Regardless of rightful aspiration, though, bishops are free to apply the indult as they see fit for the pastoral care of there diocese.]]> By: Bird Watcher http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45693 Bird Watcher Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:03:36 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45693 Funky, good post; the stories we tell ourselves tend to be more satisfying than the truth (until the truth becomes the story we tell ourselves, always better). Anyhoo... I thought you'd be interested: 1) The <a href="http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d2_en.htm" rel="nofollow">Vatican News Service press commentary</a> on the MP has it that the "extraordinary use" was also silent on celebrant orientation (towards the bottom). Funky, good post; the stories we tell ourselves tend to be more satisfying than the truth (until the truth becomes the story we tell ourselves, always better). Anyhoo... I thought you'd be interested: 1) The <a href="http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d2_en.htm" rel="nofollow">Vatican News Service press commentary</a> on the MP has it that the "extraordinary use" was also silent on celebrant orientation (towards the bottom). 2) Dialogue Masses apparently had difficulty catching on in the past for whatever reason; <a href="http://athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-dialog-mass-was-bad-idea-and.html" rel="nofollow">an author</a> suggests one main one is the unison problem of spoken non-vernacular. Don't know what people's experience of this is, but it sounds believable, unless we're talking about the very limited context of interested persons that the MP seems to have been released for; could also suggest the importance of more singing a la the Eastern traditions. 3) Your "no limit" interpretation may bump up against some other interpretations, notably those of your diocesan officials, who, I've heard, have instructed that the only "parish" to qualify (pending further clarification before HC day) for the public celebrations noted in Art. 5 of the MP is your already-present Latin Mass community. Don't know the reason, but it appears that the "attachment to previous liturgical tradition" may be narrowly interpreted so as to create a kind of "limit". Peace.
1) The Vatican News Service press commentary on the MP has it that the "extraordinary use" was also silent on celebrant orientation (towards the bottom).

Funky, good post; the stories we tell ourselves tend to be more satisfying than the truth (until the truth becomes the story we tell ourselves, always better). Anyhoo… I thought you'd be interested:

1) The Vatican News Service press commentary on the MP has it that the "extraordinary use" was also silent on celebrant orientation (towards the bottom).

2) Dialogue Masses apparently had difficulty catching on in the past for whatever reason; an author suggests one main one is the unison problem of spoken non-vernacular. Don't know what people's experience of this is, but it sounds believable, unless we're talking about the very limited context of interested persons that the MP seems to have been released for; could also suggest the importance of more singing a la the Eastern traditions.

3) Your "no limit" interpretation may bump up against some other interpretations, notably those of your diocesan officials, who, I've heard, have instructed that the only "parish" to qualify (pending further clarification before HC day) for the public celebrations noted in Art. 5 of the MP is your already-present Latin Mass community. Don't know the reason, but it appears that the "attachment to previous liturgical tradition" may be narrowly interpreted so as to create a kind of "limit".

Peace.]]> By: Wren http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45691 Wren Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:57:53 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45691 The media never fails to amaze me in how they can miss so much. They do not see that their own bias clouds their view. The recent stories on the CDF and Motu proprio are two glaring examples. How sad that the media reports more on what it believes about the Catholic Church than it reports on what the Church says about herself or even just the facts. Why is it that when a reporter wants to ask a "typical" Catholic something about the Church they inevitably find the most fringe lunatic in a parish.
Why is it that when a reporter wants to ask a "typical" Catholic something about the Church they inevitably find the most fringe lunatic in a parish.]]> By: Funky Dung http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45638 Funky Dung Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:24:55 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45638 <blockquote>"what the usual status quo norm is - not what is actually official"</blockquote>I guess I see it more in terms of which elements make up the substance of the mass and which are accidents. <blockquote>"every time you go to mass on Sunday, you are practicing something that the Vatican does not really approve of"</blockquote>Actually, it does. Vernacular translations must be approved, and they have been (though the English one needs some work). However, what most people don't realize is that the fathers of V2 didn't intend for everything to be in vernacular, in all places, or at all times. The readings, for instance, should be in the vernacular, but there's no reason why the ordinary can't be in Latin (as it is at the Oratory on Sundays at 11AM). There are great benefits to having a common liturgical language throughout the Church, but I digress. "what the usual status quo norm is - not what is actually official"I guess I see it more in terms of which elements make up the substance of the mass and which are accidents.

"every time you go to mass on Sunday, you are practicing something that the Vatican does not really approve of"
Actually, it does. Vernacular translations must be approved, and they have been (though the English one needs some work). However, what most people don't realize is that the fathers of V2 didn't intend for everything to be in vernacular, in all places, or at all times. The readings, for instance, should be in the vernacular, but there's no reason why the ordinary can't be in Latin (as it is at the Oratory on Sundays at 11AM). There are great benefits to having a common liturgical language throughout the Church, but I digress.]]> By: Chad Kimmel http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45637 Chad Kimmel Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:18:27 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45637 I thought you might be interested in this Eric: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/10/pope.churches.reut/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/10/pope.churches.reut/index.html?eref=rss_topstories]]> By: Chad Kimmel http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45636 Chad Kimmel Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:59:36 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2628#comment-45636 Eric, Thanks for posting all of this. I learned a-lot. Ya, I have read a slew of articles in the past three days that reverberate your points. But remember, as far as the popular media is concerned, they just care about what the usual status quo norm is - not what is actually official. And yes, for the most part, they are correct: in most ordinary masses, the priest does face the congregation and contemporary music is sung - not gregorian chants. And the point you brought up about the Latin Mass is a very important one. Yes, technically, the Latin Mass is the only fully approved version of the mass. And when you think about it, it sort of puts you in a tailspin, because every time you go to mass on Sunday, you are practicing something that the Vatican does not really approve of. Not every one realizes it (even the priest!), but its true. Thanks.
Thanks for posting all of this. I learned a-lot. Ya, I have read a slew of articles in the past three days that reverberate your points. But remember, as far as the popular media is concerned, they just care about what the usual status quo norm is - not what is actually official. And yes, for the most part, they are correct: in most ordinary masses, the priest does face the congregation and contemporary music is sung - not gregorian chants.

And the point you brought up about the Latin Mass is a very important one. Yes, technically, the Latin Mass is the only fully approved version of the mass. And when you think about it, it sort of puts you in a tailspin, because every time you go to mass on Sunday, you are practicing something that the Vatican does not really approve of. Not every one realizes it (even the priest!), but its true. Thanks.]]>