http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231 A Rare Bird, A Strange Duck, One Funky Blog Sun, 23 Nov 2008 13:57:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8955 Stuff Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:08:03 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8955 Funky, Here's another good prayer that the presenter of the Theology of the Body talks we attend began one of our sessions with. We figure you can never have too many good prayers! It's from St. Anselm of Canterbury, and I can't guarantee I've transcribed it exactly as written, but you'll get the idea: "O Lord, You are my Lord and God, yet I have never seen you. You have created and redeemed me, and have conferred on me all my goods, yet I know you not. I was created in order that I might know you, but I have not yet attained the goal of my creation. I confess, O Lord, and give you thanks that You have created me in Your image, so that I might be mindful of You, and contemplate You, and love You. I seek not to understand in order that I may believe; rather, I believe in order that I may understand." Here's another good prayer that the presenter of the Theology of the Body talks we attend began one of our sessions with. We figure you can never have too many good prayers! It's from St. Anselm of Canterbury, and I can't guarantee I've transcribed it exactly as written, but you'll get the idea:

"O Lord, You are my Lord and God, yet I have never seen you. You have created and redeemed me, and have conferred on me all my goods, yet I know you not. I was created in order that I might know you, but I have not yet attained the goal of my creation. I confess, O Lord, and give you thanks that You have created me in Your image, so that I might be mindful of You, and contemplate You, and love You. I seek not to understand in order that I may believe; rather, I believe in order that I may understand."]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8954 Catholic Writer Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:51:13 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8954 Amen! Funky Dung, that's a good prayer, applicable not just to this issue. :)
Funky Dung, that's a good prayer, applicable not just to this issue. ]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8953 edey Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:31:23 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8953 eusto, i think the point of overpopulation is a good one. however, it has a very fundamental flaw. it neglects the Church's teaching on living simply and unselfishly. the Church does not call us to live a life of consumerism, consumption, materialism, and selfishness. She calls us to do the opposite. if we are trying to determine the impact on the environment, it's the impact per person times the number of people. i would contend that if we were living as the Church calls us to live, there would be a decreased impact per person which would allow more people at a contstant overall impact on the enviroment. on the topic of how is nfp different from risking the condom breaking, the condom changes the nature of the sex act by putting a barrier there whereas the sex act itself isn't changed when you are abstaining for periods of the woman's cycle. for more discussion on this, i'd recommend checking out the comments in a previous post. http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2211#comments
i think the point of overpopulation is a good one. however, it has a very fundamental flaw. it neglects the Church's teaching on living simply and unselfishly. the Church does not call us to live a life of consumerism, consumption, materialism, and selfishness. She calls us to do the opposite. if we are trying to determine the impact on the environment, it's the impact per person times the number of people. i would contend that if we were living as the Church calls us to live, there would be a decreased impact per person which would allow more people at a contstant overall impact on the enviroment.

on the topic of how is nfp different from risking the condom breaking, the condom changes the nature of the sex act by putting a barrier there whereas the sex act itself isn't changed when you are abstaining for periods of the woman's cycle. for more discussion on this, i'd recommend checking out the comments in a previous post. http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2211#comments]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8950 Stuff Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:05:35 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8950 Eusto, I apologize for not having specific resources to point to at the moment (maybe someone out there can point to a link or something), but I do know for a fact that the type of population scare tactics you refer to have been investigated and answered by Catholic population ethicists. A few statistics I can recall offhand are that the ENTIRE population of the world, right now, could live in the state of Texas in single-family dwellings with yards. Space is not particularly an issue. If you are worried specifically about resources, keep in mind that the United States alone THROWS AWAY enough food to feed all the starving 3rd-world countries. And many of the population estimates that are used to scare people away from large families are based on calculations made decades ago, before we had the technology and/or desire to more efficiently produce food/energy like we do today. Not only that, have you looked at actual population growth statistics lately? You are worried about the population doubling every 50 years, but many of the most populated countries (i.e. India, China, the U.S. and much of Europe), if I remember correctly, are either just barely above, right at, or falling below replacement rate. When you add in factors like the recent natural disasters that claimed so many lives, the population is getting *smaller*. As mentioned elsewhere in these discussions, I don't believe God would give us a specific mandate (i.e. be fruitful and multiply and subdue all the earth) and then make it impossible to comply with his will - either at the personal or the social level. I apologize for not having specific resources to point to at the moment (maybe someone out there can point to a link or something), but I do know for a fact that the type of population scare tactics you refer to have been investigated and answered by Catholic population ethicists. A few statistics I can recall offhand are that the ENTIRE population of the world, right now, could live in the state of Texas in single-family dwellings with yards. Space is not particularly an issue. If you are worried specifically about resources, keep in mind that the United States alone THROWS AWAY enough food to feed all the starving 3rd-world countries. And many of the population estimates that are used to scare people away from large families are based on calculations made decades ago, before we had the technology and/or desire to more efficiently produce food/energy like we do today.

Not only that, have you looked at actual population growth statistics lately? You are worried about the population doubling every 50 years, but many of the most populated countries (i.e. India, China, the U.S. and much of Europe), if I remember correctly, are either just barely above, right at, or falling below replacement rate. When you add in factors like the recent natural disasters that claimed so many lives, the population is getting *smaller*.

As mentioned elsewhere in these discussions, I don't believe God would give us a specific mandate (i.e. be fruitful and multiply and subdue all the earth) and then make it impossible to comply with his will - either at the personal or the social level.]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8948 Lightwave Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:26:39 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8948 "Soilent Green! Don't you know what it is? It's people!" Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity to quote a Charelton Heston movie :) For those who havent seen "Soilent Green", its about an excessively over populated Earth.
Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity to quote a Charelton Heston movie For those who havent seen "Soilent Green", its about an excessively over populated Earth.]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8946 Eusto Tue, 14 Mar 2006 04:22:00 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8946 One addendum. Maybe the church is expecting that it will change this policy in the future, but since we haven't maxed out the population yet, why not? Or maybe the church is just expecting that when the time comes abstinence will be more critical. Finally, you have to realize that many people think this whole idea is just some devious ploy to massively increase the number of Catholics, and that it becomes especially suspect in poor countries with very few resources for raising children. If the kid is likely to starve, wouldn't that condom have been a pretty good idea? How do Catholics respond to these questions?
Or maybe the church is just expecting that when the time comes abstinence will be more critical. Finally, you have to realize that many people think this whole idea is just some devious ploy to massively increase the number of Catholics, and that it becomes especially suspect in poor countries with very few resources for raising children. If the kid is likely to starve, wouldn't that condom have been a pretty good idea?

How do Catholics respond to these questions?]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8945 Eusto Tue, 14 Mar 2006 04:15:16 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8945 I apologize for coming so late to this discussion and if I have missed any of it, but, as a non-Catholic, one fundamental question I have always had is that the Church's position doesn't seem viable in terms of population. Anyone who has a grasp of exponential growth should understand that allowing so many births with so few deaths would lead to an unsustainable population explosion. I mean at some point even if you hollowed out the earth and stuffed it full of people it would be overflowing. For instance in just 2 millenia from now, assuming a doubling of the population every 50 years, we would have 6*2^40=6,597,069,766,656 BILLION people instead of just our 6 billion. That's more than a TRILLION TIMES our current population. This is serious question. I mean have Catholics thought of this, or do they just expect the infant mortality rate to go up, or that most people will not be Catholics, or that the second coming will come soon enough so that it's not an issue, or do they just trust that by that time our technology will be so advanced that we'll be colonizing lots of other planets. But I'm pretty sure that after a while that we would just run out of suitable planets. I mean exponential growth is unrelenting. Every fifty years you'll have to find TWICE, FOUR TIMES, 8, 16, as many planets as have you so far . . . What's wrong with my thinking here? Finally, what's the difference between being open to the possibility that the condom may break and being open to the possibility that a child may be conceived upon NFP. The periods of abstinece do seem conducive to self-discipline though.
This is serious question. I mean have Catholics thought of this, or do they just expect the infant mortality rate to go up, or that most people will not be Catholics, or that the second coming will come soon enough so that it's not an issue, or do they just trust that by that time our technology will be so advanced that we'll be colonizing lots of other planets. But I'm pretty sure that after a while that we would just run out of suitable planets. I mean exponential growth is unrelenting. Every fifty years you'll have to find TWICE, FOUR TIMES, 8, 16, as many planets as have you so far . . .


What's wrong with my thinking here?

Finally, what's the difference between being open to the possibility that the condom may break and being open to the possibility that a child may be conceived upon NFP. The periods of abstinece do seem conducive to self-discipline though.]]> http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8941 Rob Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:48:26 +0000 http://alesrarus.funkydung.com/archives/2231#comment-8941 Nancy and I have been praying similar prayers, though spontaneous and not as well-written. At some point, I hope you'll have cause to remember that's what we prayed.
At some point, I hope you'll have cause to remember that's what we prayed.]]>