Comments on: Defining an Organism

By: Steve Nicoloso

Steve Nicoloso — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Truce. Fine. I'll have you know that a majority of the people I work with have PhDs, and the pattern (of incompetence in matters unrelated to narrowly selected fields) holds far more often than it should. In the interests of full disclosure, I'll admit that I do not hold a PhD, having chosen to follow the wicked wiles of filthy lucre, rather than the wicked wiles of filthy philosophizing.

By: Steve Nicoloso

Steve Nicoloso — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Jerry, thank you for this.

I had it out with David on this exact subject about a year ago over at his blog. You can read the grueling exchange here. (I post as "Anonymous" but "sign" my real name in the posts.) Therein David variously tries (if memory serves) a two-fold muddle:

1) if the newly formed zygote is an organism, then so is any particular adult cell (WTF?);

2) the newly formed zygote cannot be an organism because it doesn't have organs (WTF?!??!!!!).

The idea that a human zygote is not a unique human organism is absurd on the face of it, and doesn't even deserve the fine fisking you give it here. All I can say is that it is terribly sad that we've come to a day where, when having met someone with a PhD, we are forced to ask: What was it in? Having a PhD used to mean something about a person's broader, general capabilities. But no more. Today a PhD in political economy might very well mean you possess the biological insight of a 4 year-old... only the PhD makes you MUCH more dangerous.

By: Stuff

Stuff — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Jerry and Steve, you know I'm with you both.

By: John

John — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Firstly, where did the lambasting of PhD's come from?

Also, I think the Websters definition is drawing a distinction between a complex organism and single cell creatures. So by that definition E Coli is not an organism. It is alive, but is a simpler form of life than an organism.
I don't really think that the distinction has any relevency to the abortion debate (which I feel is what we're really talking about here) but it is a valid distinction to make.

By: Steve Nicoloso

Steve Nicoloso — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

John, the lambasting of PhDs comes from the fact that one of the disputing parties in question has a PhD… unfortunately to no avail.

Obviously a bacterium is an organism, in the (Webster's admitted I think) sense of a living thing. And if Webster's doesn't agree, then the problem is with Webster's, not the bacterium. I will admit there is murky ground about prions and perhaps viruses. But a bacteria is categorically alive and therefore categorically an organism.

The distinction would have little indeed to do with the abortion debate if it weren't for certain people making the outrageous claim that a newly formed human zygote is not, biologically speaking, a human organism.

By: John

John — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

I was citing the progression of
cell-tissue-organ-organ system-organism.

Which would have a bacteria as a cell, skin as a tissue, a pancreas as an organ, a jellyfish as an organ system and a cheetah as an organism.

By: Jerry Nora

Jerry Nora — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

John, you might have that, but biology doesn't. Please follow that link I included. If you can find me stuff in the biological literature (or even philosophy of biology lit.) that makes a good case otherwise, I'd like to see it, but it ain't in the cards as I see it from the science.

By: Jerry Nora

Jerry Nora — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Maybe we should also agree to a truce to no longer discuss the merits of PhDs, though I reckon dlw may be emailing Steve about those words in the future!

By: gbm3

gbm3 — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Has anyone heard of the "active" vs. "passive" potential argument for zygote personhood?

See (among others)

http://www.imago-dei.net/imago_dei/2005/08/the_potential_p.html

—

By: Jerry Nora

Jerry Nora — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Yes, I have; the argument stems from Aristotle (the Physics, I believe…).

I'd want to hold off on personhood for now. If we cannot even agree that a zygote is an organism (and if not, what is it?), personhood debates will be rather unproductive…There's more than enough grist for our mills right now!

This could make for a good independent post, gbm.