Comments on: Reformation Sunday

By: Nathan

Nathan — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Do you believe the Catholic Church teaches doctrinal or dogmatic error?

The short answer is no.

The long answer is that I don't think the Church has ever infallibly taught doctrinal or dogmatic error -- in other words, I do not believe that an ecumenical council, the infallible and extraordinary magisterium of the pope, or the ordinary and universal magisterium of the bishops have ever taught any doctrinal or dogmatic error. I do believe that popes have taught doctrinal error in their ordinary papal magisterium, and I do believe that individual bishops have taught doctrinal error in their ordinary episcopal magisterium.

The problem that arises is that I do not believe that certain teachings are infallible and thus free of error, because these "certain teachings" have not been declared either by an ecumenical council, or by extraordinary papal magisterium, or by the ordinary and universal magisterium of the bishops. Infallible authority is relegated to some of these teachings by Catholic conservatives, but I have never seen any basis for relegating such authority to these teachings and I trust that history will prove me right when the teachings are ultimately corrected.

By: EmilyE

EmilyE — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

We sang the same tune at Mass today (I'm in the choir), but it had different lyrics. I was disappointed.

And I agree — that verse is important and ought to be included.

Did you know there's another verse in the original that's almost never included in hymnals? It would be the third verse, preceding the one you highlighted. The last half of this verse is probably why we don't sing it:

"The Church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
To guide, sustain, and cherish,
Is with her to the end:
Though there be those who hate her,
And false sons in her pale,
Against or foe or traitor
She ever shall prevail."

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/h/chofound.htm

By: Jovan Weismiller

Jovan Weismiller — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

It's a good thing I haven't forgotten my Latin! You might want to check out an article by Thos. Droleskey I have posted at http://jovan66102.blogspot.com on why the date of the Feast of the Kingship of Christ was changed. It might lead you even more in a Traditional direction. The title of the post is Vivat Rex! Vive le Christ-roi!

Jovan

PS I'm putting your link on my blog.

By: Jovan Weismiller

Jovan Weismiller — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

If this is a dupe, I apologise!

It's a good thing I haven't forgotten my Latin! You might want to check out an article by Thos. Droleskey I have posted at http://jovan66102.blogspot.com on why the date of the Feast of the Kingship of Christ was changed. It might lead you even more in a Traditional direction. The title of the post is Vivat Rex! Vive le Christ-roi!

Jovan

PS I'm putting your link on my blog.

By: David Ketter

David Ketter — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Naturally, I think the Reformation brought some good to both sides of the line. Might it not be that different groups of Christians magnify different aspects of God's character? For instance, it has always struck me that the Roman Catholic Church magnifies His Glory and Majesty, Reformed Presbyterians, His Justice, Pentecostals His Power, and Baptists His Grace. That's a sample of what I mean, but I'd understand if you wouldn't agree.

By: Nathan

Nathan — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

I think your characterization of the Reformation is completely uncalled for. The Second Vatican Council calls other Christians our separated brothers, and you refer to them as heretics.

By: Funky Dung

Funky Dung — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Heresy means error. They, as you say, separated brethren. What separates them is error. We'll get no closer to reunification by pretending we don't each believe we are wrong on some important points.

By: Funky Dung

Funky Dung — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

"Naturally, I think the Reformation brought some good to both sides of the line."

If the Reformation brought about good, it was in spite of it rather than because of it. Much-needed reforms did take place in the Church during the Counter-reformation. However, the world would have been much better off if those changes had been made without the help of period that brought about division, hatred, and split blood among Christians. I do believe that though Protestants lack a fully sacramental faith that the Holy Spirit is active, to varying degrees, amongst them. I also believe that Protestants have some things to teach the Church. However, I mourn the fact that the Church has lost generations of great minds and souls that could have taught her so much. As an ecumenically minded person, I give a fair amount of slack to modern Protestants. I do not give that same slack to their intellectual ancestors. I have no qualms calling the Reformers heretics. Whatever other great things they said or did, they are responsible for fracturing the Mystical Body of Christ into uncountably many pieces.

By: berenike

berenike — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

the verse isn't in your hymnal I hope because the editors realise that the Church is one and is not rent by schisms etc! "You know what I mean" you say; I do, but the point is lost on most folk, so it's as well the verse isnae there.

By: Funky Dung

Funky Dung — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Actually, I think the real reason it was dropped was because it didn't fit well with the warm and fuzzy "I'm OK and you're OK" brand of ecumenism.