Comments on: Arminian and Catholic Soteriologies, Part Deux

By: Tom Smith

Tom Smith — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

"If we lack free will without grace, how may we choose to open ourselves to it?"

I think the grace received at baptism, as well as the prevenient grace that is latent (I dunno what Aquinas has to say about prevenient grace; I am most familiar with Wesley's formulation).

Eric, with regard to the contradiction I perceived, I thought it was in you stating that a) mortals are unable to judge salvation, and b) there is a guaranteed means of salvation.

By: Tom Smith

Tom Smith — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

"we, as mere mortals, have no right to judge which individuals will and will not receive eternal life"

"the saving grace He made available is only guaranteed to be efficacious if..."

This seems like a contradiction to me -- am I missing something?

Anyway, I'd say that the sacrament of unction (anointing) is traditionally understood as conferring grace unconditionally; its purpose is to remit sin -- why put a restriction on those in a state of mortal sin?

Nowadays, in a shift I'm not entirely comfortable with, people tend to think of unction purely as a symbol (must. . . restrain. . . self), and if it does anything, it helps lessen the pain of those who are sick. I kinda dislike the idea of giving it out to people who are in the hospital for a broken leg, and giving it once a week at that, as seems to be the common practice. It's almost as though the sacrament has lost its place. It should be for the dying, and given as part of the Viaticum.

Also, I would say that holy orders, as it imparts a permanent character on the soul, conforming it to Christ in a special way, need not be received in a state of grace for the sacrament to do what it's supposed to. However, the amount of graces received ex opere operantis (see the other thread) are reduced to nil if in a state of mortal sin, I think.

With regard to matrimony. Because I do not understand the matter and form of the sacrament well, I can't really say where it belongs in your classification. The most widely-accepted theory is that the form of the sacrament is love, and the sacrament is confected by the consummation of the marriage (the matter, obviously enough, being a man and a woman in love and able to conjugate). Perhaps because marriage is something that is permanent, it need not be received in a state of grace to receive graces ex opere operato. (Imagine having to make a quick trip to confession before you consummate your marriage!)

By: Funky Dung

Funky Dung — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

"Eric, with regard to the contradiction I perceived, I thought it was in you stating that a) mortals are unable to judge salvation, and b) there is a guaranteed means of salvation."

Like I said in my first response, to know a guaranteed way, X, achieve goal Y, does not preclude the possibility of another way, W. Add that to the command to "judge not" and you have pretty solid reasons to not judge the state of a particular soul or even to say with certainty that all members of a certain religion will not be saved. The best we can do is to point out the deficiences of other faiths and show the completeness of the Church. The Church contains the fullness of God's revealed truth. Varying degrees of incomplete truth may be found outside the Church. How much incompleteness is enough to damn you, we cannot say definitively. Any time I get the urge to say some person or some group is bound for Hell, I remember the criteria for admittance to Heaven in Matthew 25.

By: Funky Dung

Funky Dung — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

"This seems like a contradiction to me — am I missing something?"

There is a difference between "X is guaranteed to save you" and "Without X, you are guaranteed to not be saved".

By: John

John — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

A couple of issues arrise from this set of statements. Most of them centering around the notion that, without grace, we have no free will. My issue with that was that it is a tremendously dangerous idea to say "Anyone who doesn't do exactly as I say is a slave."

My friend Christy brought up a much better point though.
"We open ourselves to grace and by doing so restore the free will we were intended to inherit from our progenitors."
If we lack free will without grace, how may we choose to open ourselves to it?

By: Tom Smith

Tom Smith — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Clarification:

I mean that prevenient grace and the grace of baptism allow us a greater measure of free will, although our wills are most probably nearly free, and are never completely subjugate.

By: Funky Dung

Funky Dung — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000

It's not a lack of free will but an impaired free will. Think of a grocery cart that has a mind of it's own, so to speak. It can be made to go straight, but it takes work.