Mary, Mary Quite Contrary

[A small addition has been made to this post to clarify a point. – Funky]

I have a question for my fellow Catholics on this the Feast of the Immaculate Conception

Why did the Church find it necessary to define the Marian dogmas as such? Shouldn’t dogma be limited to those articles of faith which are absolutely required for salvation? As far as I know, no authentic orthodox Christian church requires belief in the Marian dogmas for salvation. Though Tradition can supplement and even interpret Scripture, it cannot contradict Scripture. Scripture states quite clearly that faith in Jesus Christ is what’s needed for salvation. One could also argue that participation in the sacraments is needed, too, but that’s another post. Put succinctly, if it’s not in the accepted creeds, it’s not, strictly speaking, necessary, though it may be appropriate or even laudable.

My faith is not affected, for good or ill, by whether or not Mary was conceived without sin. Nor is it affected by her bodily assumption into Heaven. I accept these dogmas as a faithful and obedient Catholic, but I do not understand why they are important.

Could someone please explain why they were defined? In particular, why couldn’t they remain at the level of doctrine rather than be promoted to dogma? I’ve heard that the Orthodox agree that Mary was conceived without sin, but were uncomfortable about declaring as dogma. Since the Orthodox Church is the only other Church we recognize as maintaining the Deposit of Faith, their discomfort gives me pause.

On a related note, where does the tradition of Mary’s perpetual virginity come from? I know the words for "brother" and "sister" in Scripture can mean "cousin" or other relatives, but what evidential support do we have for this interpretation?

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About Funky Dung

Who is Funky Dung? 29-year-old grad student in Intelligent Systems (A.I.) at the University of Pittsburgh. I consider myself to be politically moderate and independent and somewhere between a traditional and neo-traditional Catholic. I was raised Lutheran, spent a number of years as an agnostic, and joined the Catholic Church at the 2000 Easter Vigil. Why Funky Dung? I haven't been asked this question nearly as many times as you or I might expect. Funky Dung is a reference to an obscure Pink Floyd song. On the album Atom Heart Mother, there is a track called Atom Heart Mother Suite. It's broken up into movements, like a symphony, and one of the movements is called Funky Dung. I picked that nickname a long time ago (while I was still in high school I think), shortly after getting an internet connection for the first time. To me it means "cool/neat/groovy/spiffy stuff/crap/shiznit", as in "That's some cool stuff, dude!" Whence Ales Rarus? I used to enjoy making people guess what this means, but I've decided to relent and make it known to all. Ales Rarus is a Latin play on words. "Avis rarus" means "a rare bird" and carries similar meaning to "an odd fellow". "Ales" is another Latin word for bird that carries connotations of omens, signs of the times, and/or augery. If you want to get technical, both "avis" and "ales" are feminine (requiring "rara", but they can be made masculine in poetry (which tends to breaks lots of rules). I decided I'd rather have a masculine name in Latin. ;) Yeah, I'm a nerd. So what? :-P Wherefore blog? It is my intention to "teach in order to lead others to faith" by being always "on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful" through the "use of the communications media". I also act knowing that I "have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors [my] opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and [I] have a right to make [my] opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward [my and their] pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons." (adapted from CCC 904-907) Statement of Faith I have been baptized and confirmed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I, therefore, renounce Satan; I renounce all his works; I renounce all his allurements. I hold and profess all that is contained in the Apostles' Creed, the Niceno- Constantinopolitan Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. Having been buried with Christ unto death and raised up with him unto a new life, I promise to live no longer for myself or for that world which is the enemy of God but for him who died for me and rose again, serving God, my heavenly Father, faithfully and unto death in the holy Catholic Church. I am obedient to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. That is, I promote and defend authentic Catholic Teaching and Faith in union with Christ and His Church and in union with the Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of St. Peter. Thanks be unto Thee, O my God, for all Thy infinite goodness, and, especially, for the love Thou hast shown unto me at my Confirmation. I Give Thee thanks that Thou didst then send down Thy Holy Spirit unto my soul with all His gifts and graces. May He take full possession of me for ever. May His divine unction cause my face to shine. May His heavenly wisdom reign in my heart. May His understanding enlighten my darkness. May His counsel guide me. May His knowledge instruct me. May His piety make me fervent. May His divine fear keep me from all evil. Drive from my soul, O Lord, all that may defile it. Give me grace to be Thy faithful soldier, that having fought the good fight of faith, I may be brought to the crown of everlasting life, through the merits of Thy dearly beloved Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen. Behind the Curtain: an Interview With Funky Dung (Thursday, March 03, 2005) I try to avoid most memes that make their way 'round the blogosphere (We really do need a better name, don't we?), but some are worth participating in. Take for instance the "interview game" that's the talk o' the 'sphere. I think it's a great way to get to know the people in neighborhood. Who are the people in your neighborhood? In your neighborhod? In your neigh-bor-hoo-ood...*smack* Sorry, Sesame Street flashback. Anyhow, I saw Jeff "Curt Jester" Miller's answers and figured since he's a regular reader of mine he'd be a good interviewer. Without further ado, here are my answers to his questions. 1. Being that your pseudonym Funky Dung was chosen from a Pink Floyd track on Atom Heart Mother, what is you favorite Pink Floyd song and why? Wow. That's a tuffy. It's hard to pick out a single favorite. Pink Floyd isn't really a band known for singles. They mostly did album rock and my appreciation of them is mostly of a gestalt nature. If I had to pick one, though, it'd be "Comfortably Numb". I get chills up my spine every time I hear it and if it's been long enough since the last time, I get midty-eyed. I really don't know why. That's a rather unsatisfying answer for an interview, so here are the lyrics to a Rush song. It's not their best piece of music, but the lyrics describe me pretty well.

New World Man He's a rebel and a runner He's a signal turning green He's a restless young romantic Wants to run the big machine He's got a problem with his poisons But you know he'll find a cure He's cleaning up his systems To keep his nature pure Learning to match the beat of the old world man Learning to catch the heat of the third world man He's got to make his own mistakes And learn to mend the mess he makes He's old enough to know what's right But young enough not to choose it He's noble enough to win the world But weak enough to lose it --- He's a new world man... He's a radio receiver Tuned to factories and farms He's a writer and arranger And a young boy bearing arms He's got a problem with his power With weapons on patrol He's got to walk a fine line And keep his self-control Trying to save the day for the old world man Trying to pave the way for the third world man He's not concerned with yesterday He knows constant change is here today He's noble enough to know what's right But weak enough not to choose it He's wise enough to win the world But fool enough to lose it --- He's a new world man...
2. What do you consider your most important turning point from agnosticism to the Catholic Church. At some point in '99, I started attending RCIA at the Pittsburgh Oratory. I mostly went to ask a lot of obnoxious Protestant questions. Or at least that's what I told myself. I think deep down I wanted desperately to have faith again. At that point I think I'd decided that if any variety of Christianity had the Truth, the Catholic Church did. Protestantism's wholesale rejection of 1500 years of tradition didn't sit well with me, even as a former Lutheran. During class one week, Sister Bernadette Young (who runs the program) passed out thin booklet called "Handbook for Today's Catholic". One paragraph in that book spoke to me and I nearly cried as I read it.
"A person who is seeking deeper insight into reality may sometimes have doubts, even about God himself. Such doubts do not necessarily indicate lack of faith. They may be just the opposite - a sign of growing faith. Faith is alive and dynamic. It seeks, through grace, to penetrate into the very mystery of God. If a particular doctrine of faith no longer 'makes sense' to a person, the person should go right on seeking. To know what a doctrine says is one thing. To gain insight into its meaning through the gift of understanding is something else. When in doubt, 'Seek and you will find.' The person who seeks y reading, discussing, thinking, or praying eventually sees the light. The person who talks to God even when God is 'not there' is alive with faith."
At the end of class I told Sr. Bernadette that I wanted to enter the Church at the next Easter vigil. 3. If you were a tree what kind of, oh sorry about that .. what is the PODest thing you have ever done? I set up WikiIndex, a clearinghouse for reviews of theological books, good, bad, and ugly. It has a long way to go, but it'll be cool when it's finished. :) 4. What is your favorite quote from Venerable John Henry Newman? "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." 5. If you could ban one hymn from existence, what would it be? That's a tough one. As a member of the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, there are obviously a lot of songs that grate on my nerves. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably pick "Sing of the Lord's Goodness" by Ernie Sands.

6 thoughts on “Mary, Mary Quite Contrary

  1. Jerry Nora

    “Orthodoxy and the Bodily Assumption of the Theotokos”–posted on Pontifications on 8/20/04. Let me know what you think of it. Please note that the comments are just as interesting as the actual excerpt.

  2. Jerry Nora

    Again, on Pontifications, there some good Orthodox perspectives on this. I’d also recommend “Mary: Mirror of the Church” as a very traditional, but balanced reading of Mary that takes into account Protestant and Orthodox perspectives.

    Re., Orthodox, my impression is that they hate defining things unless they must. Rome is also notorious for keeping tight-lipped about issues and taking its time before saying something. I suppose that out here in the analytical West, with plenty of unfriendly philosophy and theology departments in Universities, the pope has felt compelled to formally define these things. Having read that aforementioned book on Mariology, I’m much more comfortable with these dogmas, and do believe that good Mariology is ultimately Christology.

    Also from that book and elsewhere, I get the impression that the Orthodox may not be uncomfortable about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception (remember, they believe it, they just haven’t formally defined it yet in a council) but rather the use of papal infallibility per se. JPII has since called for Orthodox theologians (in “Ut Unum Sint”–“That They may be One”)to consult with him on how papal iinfallibility could be construed in an Orthodox-friendly way. “You are Peter” is a recent book by Olivier Clement–an Anthiochian Orthodox convert from atheism–that rises to that challenge. First Things recently reviewed it and gave it a glowing review.

  3. Russ

    Cover story in Crisis touches on your question. All Marian dogmas are important because they speak to a truth about Christology and who Jesus is. Church had to proclaim Mary as the Mother of God because Nestorius denied that there was a union of the wills of Jesus and that only the human will underwent suffering. If God doesn’t suffer => no redemption.

    http://www.crisismagazine.com/feature1.htm

    The perpetual virginity has been taught since the 4th century, and the title ‘ever-virgin’ was part of liturgy since the 2nd century. The belief can’t be proved but it is fitting when considering the parallels between Mary and the Church, being unstained, totally consecrated to God. Also, the Ark of the Covenant was never entered by man. It doesn’t directly contradict any Scripture. The best explanation of the ‘brothers and sisters’ issue come from a first marriage of Joseph. (Tradition holds Joseph being much older) Epiphanius gives this view in the 4th century.
    3 arguments in favor:
    Siblings appear to be older, assuming authority over Jesus: advising him and attempting to stop his ministry. Younger Jewish siblings wouldn’t dare talk to the first-born like that.

    Apocryphal writings take this scenario to be fact: Gospels of Thomas/Peter, Protoevangelium of James

    Mark refers to Jesus as “son of Mary” as if to distinguish from the sons of Joseph. No other explanation for deviating from Jewish custom of identifying by the father.

    Another point mentioned in the Crisis article, Mary is shocked when Gabriel mentions that she would conceive a son. Unlikely for a bride-to-be to be surprised at the mention of future children unless she had taken a vow of virginity.

  4. Amy

    I was just talking about Mary with my 5th graders this past Sunday and I have some thoughts for you but Matt & I have to get ready for Mass & RCIA… I’ll blog about it when I get back.

  5. Amy

    Ok.. my thoughts are up on my alternate blog (listed as my homepage this time).
    Some food for thought… your faith may be unaffected, but perhaps your salvation is. 😉

  6. Steve N

    Umm… err… I think that dogma, for Catholics at least, is limited to “those articles of faith which are absolutely required for salvation.” And um… I think therefore the Marian doctrines rise to that level.

    Though I must confess that I, as a tortured Evangelical Protestant, cannot see how such doctrines factor in, other than the fact that the Church says you gotta believe ’em.

    Cheers!

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